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It's not true that one needs to pay for a reasonable computer-science education. One can learn wholly online for the cost of Internet connectivity. The problem

It's not true that one needs to pay for a reasonable computer-science education. One can learn wholly online for the cost of Internet connectivity. The problem is that Lambda are vampires. Their model is completely superfluous. They do not add any value over self-assigned MIT lectures on Youtube. From what I have gathered, Lambda is the kind of setting where folks like me are supposed to show up and supplement the "teacher" and their lack of knowledge; normally, when I do that, I expect to be paid six figures per year.

chrisseaton 7y ago
> It's not true that one needs to pay for a reasonable computer-science education. Where on earth do you think I said that? > The problem is that Lambda are vampires. You're just resorting to abuse now.
- lidHanteyk 7y ago
  Oh my. If you cannot read your own comments, then we aren't going to be able to have a conversation. You clearly implied in your earlier comment that education isn't free and that Lambda earns their keep. But is that the case? In formal jargon, which might not sound much better, Lambda is a rent-seeker [0]; they want to complicate an existing system (people teach themselves for free using freely-available materials and time) in order to extract money from the system. Quoting from [0]: > The classic example of rent-seeking, according to Robert Shiller, is that of a feudal lord who installs a chain across a river that flows through his land and then hires a collector to charge passing boats a fee to lower the chain. There is nothing productive about the chain or the collector. The lord has made no improvements to the river and is not adding value in any way, directly or indirectly, except for himself. All he is doing is finding a way to make money from something that used to be free. From one of many deep looks at Lambda [1]: > Lambda’s educational model hinges on student-contractors called Team Leads (TLs) — students who, two months into their education, defer another two months in order to become teaching assistants tasked with taking attendance, checking in with other students, and answering questions. These student-contractors are paid roughly $13 an hour and have only just learned the material they are then tasked with explaining to the next batch of students. One student told me he was given no training on how to be a TL and spent many hours on devising curriculum and exercises to help other students. Another student, Erica Thompson, told me that TLs “are hired on a Friday and start on Monday.” TLs are roughly analogous to graduate-student instructors at universities, but with far less experience with the material. I am not exaggerating: I am not interested in paying money, or promising away future money, or getting less than a $15/hr wage, for the privilege of regurgitating material to my fellow students. It sounds like a massive waste of everybody's time and money. Why do you defend these practices so ardently? Were you victimized by Lambda or something? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking [1] https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/02/lambda-schools-job-placement-rate-is-lower-than-claimed.html https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/02/lambda-schools-job-p...
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    > Oh my. If you cannot read your own comments, then we aren't going to be able to have a conversation. You clearly implied in your earlier comment that education isn't free and that Lambda earns their keep. I said this education product isn't free. That's just a fact. I didn't say it was not possible to get other education for free. I got my CS education for free, for example. > is that of a feudal lord who installs a chain across a river that flows through his land I think you're confused about what rent seeking is. The feudal lord in this example installs a chain across a river. He stops people using the river who could have done free otherwise. That's the essential bit that makes it rent seeking. But Lambda School don't damage anyone's access to education. They add their own product on top and take nothing away. They don't stop anyone from using using any other resource. It's a net benefit to society. Even if you think it's a useless course, it's a net zero to society in that case, which isn't something to get annoyed about as long as they're minding their own business. > I am not interested in paying money, or promising away future money, or getting less than a $15/hr wage, for the privilege of regurgitating material to my fellow students. Well... then don't! Nobody's making you, or even suggesting you do. > Why do you defend these practices so ardently? Always good to step in to defend someone who's being subjected to an unjust attack!
    - lidHanteyk 6y ago
      Ah, so now the "attacks" are "unjust". Feel free to bring evidence to this discussion; as far as I can tell, your position is that because you haven't been hurt, therefore nobody is getting hurt. Lambda damages the folks that they sucker into being students. Since they have a non-zero number of students, there are some folks who have been damaged. [0] is a writeup of some of their stories. Lambda is not a net benefit to society. Even if such utilitarian thinking were valid, then no, by the broken window fallacy [1], Lambda is still slurping time out of the hands of folks who could have spent it on other things. Finally, while I'm loathe to call you a liar, you claim that you got your CS education for free. Does that include your PhD [2] and associated academic career? Congratulations if so, but it is not the typical experience of PhD candidates to get their education for free. [0] https://www.theverge.com/2020/2/11/21131848/lambda-school-coding-bootcamp-isa-tuition-cost-free https://www.theverge.com/2020/2/11/21131848/lambda-school-co... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window [2] https://chrisseaton.com/phd/ https://chrisseaton.com/phd/
ballenf 7y ago
FWIW, if you've been burned by them: either through paying for substandard education or otherwise mislead it would likely be of interest to people here to hear the specifics. Vague attacks on them ungrounded in facts just make it difficult for anyone to see your perspective. I know people burned by bootcamps in the sense that they should have been told up front that they didn't have a strong enough foundation for the bootcamp to be worthwhile. This was before the days of salary reimbursements, so they just paid outright (installment plans). I also know people who had their instructors go missing for weeks of the program replaced by unqualified recent grads. Finally every bootcamp lies about their placement rates it seems. All that being said I work with a few bootcamp grads and they are very talented and productive developers.

chrisseaton 7y ago

> It's not true that one needs to pay for a reasonable computer-science education. Where on earth do you think I said that? > The problem is that Lambda are vampires. You're just resorting to abuse now.

lidHanteyk 7y ago
Oh my. If you cannot read your own comments, then we aren't going to be able to have a conversation. You clearly implied in your earlier comment that education isn't free and that Lambda earns their keep. But is that the case? In formal jargon, which might not sound much better, Lambda is a rent-seeker [0]; they want to complicate an existing system (people teach themselves for free using freely-available materials and time) in order to extract money from the system. Quoting from [0]: > The classic example of rent-seeking, according to Robert Shiller, is that of a feudal lord who installs a chain across a river that flows through his land and then hires a collector to charge passing boats a fee to lower the chain. There is nothing productive about the chain or the collector. The lord has made no improvements to the river and is not adding value in any way, directly or indirectly, except for himself. All he is doing is finding a way to make money from something that used to be free. From one of many deep looks at Lambda [1]: > Lambda’s educational model hinges on student-contractors called Team Leads (TLs) — students who, two months into their education, defer another two months in order to become teaching assistants tasked with taking attendance, checking in with other students, and answering questions. These student-contractors are paid roughly $13 an hour and have only just learned the material they are then tasked with explaining to the next batch of students. One student told me he was given no training on how to be a TL and spent many hours on devising curriculum and exercises to help other students. Another student, Erica Thompson, told me that TLs “are hired on a Friday and start on Monday.” TLs are roughly analogous to graduate-student instructors at universities, but with far less experience with the material. I am not exaggerating: I am not interested in paying money, or promising away future money, or getting less than a $15/hr wage, for the privilege of regurgitating material to my fellow students. It sounds like a massive waste of everybody's time and money. Why do you defend these practices so ardently? Were you victimized by Lambda or something? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking [1] https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/02/lambda-schools-job-placement-rate-is-lower-than-claimed.html https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/02/lambda-schools-job-p...
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  > Oh my. If you cannot read your own comments, then we aren't going to be able to have a conversation. You clearly implied in your earlier comment that education isn't free and that Lambda earns their keep. I said this education product isn't free. That's just a fact. I didn't say it was not possible to get other education for free. I got my CS education for free, for example. > is that of a feudal lord who installs a chain across a river that flows through his land I think you're confused about what rent seeking is. The feudal lord in this example installs a chain across a river. He stops people using the river who could have done free otherwise. That's the essential bit that makes it rent seeking. But Lambda School don't damage anyone's access to education. They add their own product on top and take nothing away. They don't stop anyone from using using any other resource. It's a net benefit to society. Even if you think it's a useless course, it's a net zero to society in that case, which isn't something to get annoyed about as long as they're minding their own business. > I am not interested in paying money, or promising away future money, or getting less than a $15/hr wage, for the privilege of regurgitating material to my fellow students. Well... then don't! Nobody's making you, or even suggesting you do. > Why do you defend these practices so ardently? Always good to step in to defend someone who's being subjected to an unjust attack!
  - lidHanteyk 6y ago
    Ah, so now the "attacks" are "unjust". Feel free to bring evidence to this discussion; as far as I can tell, your position is that because you haven't been hurt, therefore nobody is getting hurt. Lambda damages the folks that they sucker into being students. Since they have a non-zero number of students, there are some folks who have been damaged. [0] is a writeup of some of their stories. Lambda is not a net benefit to society. Even if such utilitarian thinking were valid, then no, by the broken window fallacy [1], Lambda is still slurping time out of the hands of folks who could have spent it on other things. Finally, while I'm loathe to call you a liar, you claim that you got your CS education for free. Does that include your PhD [2] and associated academic career? Congratulations if so, but it is not the typical experience of PhD candidates to get their education for free. [0] https://www.theverge.com/2020/2/11/21131848/lambda-school-coding-bootcamp-isa-tuition-cost-free https://www.theverge.com/2020/2/11/21131848/lambda-school-co... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window [2] https://chrisseaton.com/phd/ https://chrisseaton.com/phd/

ballenf 7y ago

FWIW, if you've been burned by them: either through paying for substandard education or otherwise mislead it would likely be of interest to people here to hear the specifics. Vague attacks on them ungrounded in facts just make it difficult for anyone to see your perspective. I know people burned by bootcamps in the sense that they should have been told up front that they didn't have a strong enough foundation for the bootcamp to be worthwhile. This was before the days of salary reimbursements, so they just paid outright (installment plans). I also know people who had their instructors go missing for weeks of the program replaced by unqualified recent grads. Finally every bootcamp lies about their placement rates it seems. All that being said I work with a few bootcamp grads and they are very talented and productive developers.