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I'd like to show you some graphs. I'm going to use link shorteners because they're very very long ugly urls. Homicides per 10,000 people, 1983 to 2003: http:/

I'd like to show you some graphs. I'm going to use link shorteners because they're very very long ugly urls. Homicides per 10,000 people, 1983 to 2003: http://bit.ly/hmivsb http://bit.ly/hmivsb http://bit.ly/gOATzm http://bit.ly/gOATzm Starting in 2004, the government prohibited release of the figures. http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/35766.htm#econ http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/35766.htm#econ About 25% of the country lives in abject poverty, despite the fact that the country is doing over $10 billion in profits on $30 billion of revenues for oil. Before I analyze, let me lay my cards on the table here philosophically - I'm a classical liberal, but I'm kind of flexible in my positions - I think a diverse set of governments across the world is good, and then let people vote with their feet. Different structures work for different people - I wouldn't want to live in Norway's system, but I think Norway's system is awesome for most Norwegians. Now, let's talk about Venezuela. I think Venezuela is one of the most criminally misgoverned places on the whole planet. There's more violent deaths in Caracas in any given month than Baghdad. Baghdad, dude. This is my beef with the sort of government Venezuela has - I think it's very conducive to degenerating into rule-by-bandit, which is what they have. (I'm in Vietnam, which is also under rule-by-bandit) The biggest argument against Venezuela's sort of government isn't necessarily abstract philosophy - it's that it doesn't really work well in the real world. I think Venezuela is criminally misgoverned and in desperate need of change. You and I are probably very, very far apart in political philosophies, but I wanted to write this anyways. I'm kind of vaguely of the belief that capitalism + strong welfare state can work for some people, especially with a population that has similar goals and unified culture. There's downsides to it, but there's downsides to everything. But I'm pretty damn sure that the Venezuelan model leads to rule-by-bandit, leaving many people impoverished, and explosive growth in crime and violence and unrest. I don't know 100% what my goal here is with this comment - I guess just to put some numbers and views on the table. I think the Venezuelan model is a disaster for Venezuelans, and indeed, the whole world. I think everyone should work together against governments like Venezuela, North Korea, Libya, places like that, even if you'd like to live somewhere like Scandinavia. Venezuela ain't no Scandinavia.

harry67676 16y ago
It's the same in South Africa, that other glorious example of modern democracy that is also the rape capital of the planet. It's basically the left wing version of how right wingers support military despots, except in left wing movements that have gone off the rails the criminal underclasses thrive, as they are used as a paramilitary against their enemies. See Hobsbawm's works on social banditry for the history of this, also see Tom Wolfe's Radical Chic & Mau-Mauing the Flak Catchers. Of course, if you point this out to "progressives" they'll call you a racist, as successful revolutions against "the man" are considered sacred.
- michaelchisari 16y ago
  Of course, if you point this out to "progressives" they'll call you a racist, as successful revolutions against "the man" are considered sacred. Only in strawman world, apparently. I find your comment to lack nuance. I'm opposed to Chavez, I think he's a failure as a leader. However, there's a false dichotomy that's often created in discussions such as these. There are economic and social principles that I find to be positive for countries like Venezuela. If I say that I support those principles, many people (such as yourself) have a hard time not reading that as support for Chavez as a steward of those principles. Even though nothing I said in my comment about Chavez was positive in any way. On the other side, if I state that I'm opposed to Chavez, that doesn't mean that I would support things like privatization of their oil reserves, or a dismantling of the social welfare programs or a move away from neighorhood democracy, all of which I think are important programs for pulling a country like Venezuela out of poverty and disarray and into a state of social health and prosperity.
  - hollerith 16y ago
    > There are economic and social principles that I find to be positive for countries like Venezuela. If I say that I support those principles, many people (such as yourself) have a hard time not reading that as support for Chavez as a steward of those principles. If the principles have been tried in dozen of countries over the last 90 years, and the results most of the time have been much worse than capitalistic countries like the U.S, then maybe the principles should not be used to organize a society or a government until there is fundamental progress on the art of governance. Yes, I saw your reference to Rwanda. I doubt the accuracy of the stats on Rwanda. None of the dozens of expats and world travelers who post here and no one I have seen anywhere else on the internet has said anything positive about the prospect of living in Rwanda.
calibraxis 16y ago
Now let me share with you some info about the US: More than 1 in 100 adults in the United States are in prison. The United States has less than 5% of the world's population and 23.4% of the world's prison population. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States#Comparison_with_other_countries http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_Sta...) The 2009 U.S. military budget accounts for approximately 40% of global arms spending and is over six times larger than the military budget of China. The United States and its close allies are responsible for two-thirds to three-quarters of the world's military spending (of which, in turn, the U.S. is responsible for the majority). (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_United_States#Comparison_with_other_countries http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_United_S...) From wars against the Mideast, healthcare, the environment, teachers, working class, democracy; and in favor of corporations, capitalism, etc... Many (maybe most, like myself) here are from the US, and I think the US's wealthy elites are a greater threat to the world than teachers unions and Venezuelans. So let's focus on not only what we're in a position to affect — as citizens with above-average power and privileges — but what matters too.
- rick888 16y ago
  "The United States has less than 5% of the world's population and 23.4% of the world's prison population." Did you ever stop and think that if some of the other countries mentioned weren't so corrupt, they might also have a higher prison population? Our system is pretty, damn fair, even though once in awhile it fails and an innocent person goes to prison. "The 2009 U.S. military budget accounts for approximately 40% of global arms spending and is over six times larger than the military budget of China. The United States and its close allies are responsible for two-thirds to three-quarters of the world's military spending (of which, in turn, the U.S. is responsible for the majority)." The US has to babysit the world. I wish it wasn't the case, but most countries do not have their shit together. "US's wealthy elites are a greater threat to the world than teachers unions and Venezuelans." Teacher's unions directly threaten good education, which can lead to uneducated citizens and poverty. It's very difficult to get fired while you are in a teacher's union and there is no incentive to actually teach well. I've seen the same thing happen in the auto unions. It's like a mini example of why communism doesn't work (everybody is equal and since you not only get an automatic raise every year, and everybody in your department/position needs to get a raise if you do, it offers no reason to actually do better). Capitalism isn't a bad thing. It's provided the best standard of living the world has ever seen. There may be some problems with it, but we shouldn't discount it as a whole. I don't know how you can say the US is against the environment. If you mean global warming, then yes. Global warming isn't a religion. I need more evidence than what we have (which is based on falsified data) to prove that it's man-made. It's also become such a politicized issue, that if you are a scientist and go against it, you can lose funding from the government and respect from your peers. Nobody scientist would want to do this.
michaelchisari 16y ago
But I'm pretty damn sure that the Venezuelan model leads to rule-by-bandit I think you should maybe re-read what I wrote. Most of my praise for Venezuela is in it's Bolivarian principles, but it's application has not been desirable. I agree that it has been totally mismanaged. You'll notice, however, that my suggestion for Venezuela wasn't the Venezuelan model, but a mixture of Lulaism and the Norwegian model. Venezuela ain't no Scandinavia. And there's reasons for that. But that doesn't mean that Venezuela can't move towards a functional social democratic model. In fact, there's no better example than Rwanda, a country that 15 years ago, was hacking itself apart, and has been able to move in very different direction in that time.

harry67676 16y ago

It's the same in South Africa, that other glorious example of modern democracy that is also the rape capital of the planet. It's basically the left wing version of how right wingers support military despots, except in left wing movements that have gone off the rails the criminal underclasses thrive, as they are used as a paramilitary against their enemies. See Hobsbawm's works on social banditry for the history of this, also see Tom Wolfe's Radical Chic & Mau-Mauing the Flak Catchers. Of course, if you point this out to "progressives" they'll call you a racist, as successful revolutions against "the man" are considered sacred.

michaelchisari 16y ago
Of course, if you point this out to "progressives" they'll call you a racist, as successful revolutions against "the man" are considered sacred. Only in strawman world, apparently. I find your comment to lack nuance. I'm opposed to Chavez, I think he's a failure as a leader. However, there's a false dichotomy that's often created in discussions such as these. There are economic and social principles that I find to be positive for countries like Venezuela. If I say that I support those principles, many people (such as yourself) have a hard time not reading that as support for Chavez as a steward of those principles. Even though nothing I said in my comment about Chavez was positive in any way. On the other side, if I state that I'm opposed to Chavez, that doesn't mean that I would support things like privatization of their oil reserves, or a dismantling of the social welfare programs or a move away from neighorhood democracy, all of which I think are important programs for pulling a country like Venezuela out of poverty and disarray and into a state of social health and prosperity.
- hollerith 16y ago
  > There are economic and social principles that I find to be positive for countries like Venezuela. If I say that I support those principles, many people (such as yourself) have a hard time not reading that as support for Chavez as a steward of those principles. If the principles have been tried in dozen of countries over the last 90 years, and the results most of the time have been much worse than capitalistic countries like the U.S, then maybe the principles should not be used to organize a society or a government until there is fundamental progress on the art of governance. Yes, I saw your reference to Rwanda. I doubt the accuracy of the stats on Rwanda. None of the dozens of expats and world travelers who post here and no one I have seen anywhere else on the internet has said anything positive about the prospect of living in Rwanda.

calibraxis 16y ago

Now let me share with you some info about the US: More than 1 in 100 adults in the United States are in prison. The United States has less than 5% of the world's population and 23.4% of the world's prison population. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States#Comparison_with_other_countries http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_Sta...) The 2009 U.S. military budget accounts for approximately 40% of global arms spending and is over six times larger than the military budget of China. The United States and its close allies are responsible for two-thirds to three-quarters of the world's military spending (of which, in turn, the U.S. is responsible for the majority). (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_United_States#Comparison_with_other_countries http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_United_S...) From wars against the Mideast, healthcare, the environment, teachers, working class, democracy; and in favor of corporations, capitalism, etc... Many (maybe most, like myself) here are from the US, and I think the US's wealthy elites are a greater threat to the world than teachers unions and Venezuelans. So let's focus on not only what we're in a position to affect — as citizens with above-average power and privileges — but what matters too.

rick888 16y ago
"The United States has less than 5% of the world's population and 23.4% of the world's prison population." Did you ever stop and think that if some of the other countries mentioned weren't so corrupt, they might also have a higher prison population? Our system is pretty, damn fair, even though once in awhile it fails and an innocent person goes to prison. "The 2009 U.S. military budget accounts for approximately 40% of global arms spending and is over six times larger than the military budget of China. The United States and its close allies are responsible for two-thirds to three-quarters of the world's military spending (of which, in turn, the U.S. is responsible for the majority)." The US has to babysit the world. I wish it wasn't the case, but most countries do not have their shit together. "US's wealthy elites are a greater threat to the world than teachers unions and Venezuelans." Teacher's unions directly threaten good education, which can lead to uneducated citizens and poverty. It's very difficult to get fired while you are in a teacher's union and there is no incentive to actually teach well. I've seen the same thing happen in the auto unions. It's like a mini example of why communism doesn't work (everybody is equal and since you not only get an automatic raise every year, and everybody in your department/position needs to get a raise if you do, it offers no reason to actually do better). Capitalism isn't a bad thing. It's provided the best standard of living the world has ever seen. There may be some problems with it, but we shouldn't discount it as a whole. I don't know how you can say the US is against the environment. If you mean global warming, then yes. Global warming isn't a religion. I need more evidence than what we have (which is based on falsified data) to prove that it's man-made. It's also become such a politicized issue, that if you are a scientist and go against it, you can lose funding from the government and respect from your peers. Nobody scientist would want to do this.

michaelchisari 16y ago

But I'm pretty damn sure that the Venezuelan model leads to rule-by-bandit I think you should maybe re-read what I wrote. Most of my praise for Venezuela is in it's Bolivarian principles, but it's application has not been desirable. I agree that it has been totally mismanaged. You'll notice, however, that my suggestion for Venezuela wasn't the Venezuelan model, but a mixture of Lulaism and the Norwegian model. Venezuela ain't no Scandinavia. And there's reasons for that. But that doesn't mean that Venezuela can't move towards a functional social democratic model. In fact, there's no better example than Rwanda, a country that 15 years ago, was hacking itself apart, and has been able to move in very different direction in that time.