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Why is there such a fixation on university rankings in the United States? Postsecondary rankings don't seem to matter as much in other Western countries.

notfromhere 7y ago
It’s what drives enrollment and tuition fees are a huge part of revenue. In other countries, there’s more state support and you don’t need to market universities
Infinitesimus 7y ago
A mix of trying to get a sense of educational quality and prestige. In some specific programs, you'd want to aim for the schools known to have the more robust curriculum but outside of that, it's mostly ego/prestige. "I got to a top N school, I went to harvard", etc. That badge signals _something_ to your peers, parents, and future employers. Think of all those companies that explicitly filter for "target schools". It works pretty well too, you'll get a call-back to an interview because you have an Ivy on your resume even if you barely passed your classes.
dudul 7y ago
Education is a market. To make money, universities need to attract customers. And they do that by being highly ranked. And I disagree with your statement. Many other western countries have their "ivy league" equivalent. Not all schools are equal in the rest of the world either. But I do however agree that the "marketing" aspect is definitely more pronounced in the US.
monadic2 7y ago
The professional connections pay for the tuition and much more.
- chasd00 7y ago
  the importance of professional connections are understated in my opinion. You can make a career out of only knowing the right things and you can make a career out of only knowing the right people but you really excel when you know the right things and know the right people.
plorkyeran 7y ago
Is there actually a big fixation on university rankings? I had no idea what my school's ranking was (apparently it's now #40) and I'm not sure I've ever had conversation where university rankings came up outside of specifically talking about where a high school student is thinking about applying. Even then it's not like it's common for people to pick which school to go to out of the ones that accepted them based solely on rankings. People who care about Ivies and the such don't care because the Ivies have a high ranking. Someone who went to Harvard who wants to use that fact to their advantage isn't going to say that they went to a "top 3" school.
- commandlinefan 7y ago
  > Is there actually a big fixation on university rankings? I've observed that, among people who care about university rankings in hiring, there are exactly two categories: the top five, and everything else. If you went to #200, you're the "same" as somebody who went to #25.
- ijidak 7y ago
  The rankings mattered to me when applying to schools because it seemed like a useful metric to judge the quality of education I would get, and the usability of that education. When you're making one of the biggest decisions of your life, rankings can help you know how good your choices are. Not saying rankings are correct... But for those applying, they likely appreciate having a ranking mechanism. It's one of the few objective measures of universities available. How do you know, otherwise, if this university that wants to charge you $40,000 per year is really going to deliver on their promise? You can't just go back to school again and start over. It's a life decision, so there is a desperate desire for the applying student to have an objective way of stack ranking the choices. (Disclosure: I attended MIT. And I basically just applied to the top 5 or 10 computer science universities -- again, using rankings. And hoped to get into one of those.)
- AtlasBarfed 7y ago
  If you dropped 200k-300k on an education, you'll be invested in either the continued value or and improvement in your investment's reputation, which as the years go on is really its only value.
barry-cotter 7y ago
Not true of the UK, France, Korea or Japan. I don’t know if they care about what are basically league tables but any educated citizen would find it no more difficult to reel off five to ten of their best universities than an American would to list Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, MIT etc. I can see how it would look weird from a German, or possibly a Dutch or Nordic perspective but a deliberate effort to bring up the bottom and limited attempts to raise the top is extremely different from the US system, where there are large and growing returns to excellence. Also the US elite just have smaller enrollments as a share of population. Oxbridge, the grandes écoles or Korea’s top three enrol 1-2% of yearly students. The top ten US universities maybe a tenth of that.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- roel_v 7y ago
  From within Dutch universities, rankings are considered very important (more by the non-academic staff than by the academics). The general public doesn't really care all that much yet, but they do more and more each year. It's especially for international (student) recruiting that the rankings (national and international) are important, and that's seeping through into everything else for last 10 years or so now. (not disagreeing with you, just adding some nuance about the direction of things)
  - akjssdk 7y ago
    As a Dutch PhD student, I am not sure I agree. There is some hype around the rankings of the universities and specifically the bachelor and master tracks at a given university, but not many students really care about them. I certainly did not choose my university based on their ranking, and don't know many that did. Choice is based much more on travel distance and other factors, not on perceived quality of a university. I also would not be able to point out the best universities in the Netherlands, which says something as well.
    - roel_v 7y ago
talentedcoin 7y ago
Canadian university board member here ... Rankings drive enrolment, especially international enrolment, which is a major source of revenue. Also prestige helps to attract the best researchers, who are being wooed by many top schools.
- ashtonkem 7y ago
  Well, it did. We're going to see how unsustainable our secondary education system is without the children of rich foreign families to sustain it.
Prcmaker 7y ago
Australia here. Universities consistently market their national ranking here. As a staff member I've found management consistently pushes things that will raise their ranking. As a student initially at a high ranked university, I found I got a better education by switching to a much lower ranked university.
- spideymans 7y ago
  > As a student initially at a high ranked university, I found I got a better education by switching to a much lower ranked university. That’s interesting. I’ve consistently heard the same sentiment from ex-students and alumni of certain highly ranked Canadian universities (undergrad) as well. They’ll generally complain about a lack of student support and restrictive policies at these institutions, making it needlessly difficult for students to succeed. I suspect the higher ranked universities might be under pressure to artificially increase the difficulty of their programs, in order to distinguish their alumni from the alumni of other schools, who’s programs cover more or less the same subject matter.
  - Prcmaker 7y ago
    In Australia, the rankings often seem to be based on outcomes unrelated to undergraduate studies (citation needed). I've found that makes for a situation where there is very little need to increase or maintain the quality of learning at the lower levels. While Uni Melbourne is consistently rated high[1], the quality of teaching and support was very poor[2] and opportunities within the university extremely limited. In contrast, when I moved interstate and transferred institutes, despite being at a much lower-ranked university I received (subjectively) better tuition and support from low and high-level staff. I was even (enthusiastically) given the opportunity to contribute to active research in my vacations. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Melbourne https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Melbourne [2] 3yrs Mech Eng undergraduate student first-hand experience.
  - detaro 7y ago
    Also, which rankings are meaningfully measuring student experience and give it weight? I know some send around questionaires, but for the things I looked at it seemed a minor concern.
Consultant32452 7y ago
As a general rule, you aren't allowed admittance into the Cathedral unless you've demonstrated proper indoctrination at the most "prestigious" universities.
fergie 7y ago
I have worked at universities in the UK and Norway, and believe me, this stuff matters. A lot. Its great that students can make an informed choice about where to start, particularly if they do not come from an academic household. Its not a given that people have heard of places like MIT, and these lists are a somewhat neutral way of seeing which universities are the most "legit". You have to remember that a lot of low-quality institutions are marketing themselves pretty hard to students, and if it weren't for rankings it would be easy to make bad choices when choosing a place to study.
diiaann 7y ago
I was talking to a few European friends (1 Dutch, 1 French) and what they described was that even the most bright students typically go to their regional universities which are all "equally good". Here in the US, the rankings are almost a proxy for admissions rate. Since "top schools" are exclusive, the student population tends to be at least one the following: talented, precocious, or well-connected/rich. I attended a "top 25" university, which is a ways from the Stanford, Harvard, Yales of the world but the environment was very special. Hard to describe, but you are surrounded by passionate, ambitious people, you can't help but feel energized. Is this a fair system? That's a whole another conversation.

notfromhere 7y ago

It’s what drives enrollment and tuition fees are a huge part of revenue. In other countries, there’s more state support and you don’t need to market universities

Infinitesimus 7y ago

A mix of trying to get a sense of educational quality and prestige. In some specific programs, you'd want to aim for the schools known to have the more robust curriculum but outside of that, it's mostly ego/prestige. "I got to a top N school, I went to harvard", etc. That badge signals _something_ to your peers, parents, and future employers. Think of all those companies that explicitly filter for "target schools". It works pretty well too, you'll get a call-back to an interview because you have an Ivy on your resume even if you barely passed your classes.

dudul 7y ago

Education is a market. To make money, universities need to attract customers. And they do that by being highly ranked. And I disagree with your statement. Many other western countries have their "ivy league" equivalent. Not all schools are equal in the rest of the world either. But I do however agree that the "marketing" aspect is definitely more pronounced in the US.

monadic2 7y ago

The professional connections pay for the tuition and much more.

chasd00 7y ago
the importance of professional connections are understated in my opinion. You can make a career out of only knowing the right things and you can make a career out of only knowing the right people but you really excel when you know the right things and know the right people.

plorkyeran 7y ago

Is there actually a big fixation on university rankings? I had no idea what my school's ranking was (apparently it's now #40) and I'm not sure I've ever had conversation where university rankings came up outside of specifically talking about where a high school student is thinking about applying. Even then it's not like it's common for people to pick which school to go to out of the ones that accepted them based solely on rankings. People who care about Ivies and the such don't care because the Ivies have a high ranking. Someone who went to Harvard who wants to use that fact to their advantage isn't going to say that they went to a "top 3" school.

commandlinefan 7y ago
> Is there actually a big fixation on university rankings? I've observed that, among people who care about university rankings in hiring, there are exactly two categories: the top five, and everything else. If you went to #200, you're the "same" as somebody who went to #25.
ijidak 7y ago
The rankings mattered to me when applying to schools because it seemed like a useful metric to judge the quality of education I would get, and the usability of that education. When you're making one of the biggest decisions of your life, rankings can help you know how good your choices are. Not saying rankings are correct... But for those applying, they likely appreciate having a ranking mechanism. It's one of the few objective measures of universities available. How do you know, otherwise, if this university that wants to charge you $40,000 per year is really going to deliver on their promise? You can't just go back to school again and start over. It's a life decision, so there is a desperate desire for the applying student to have an objective way of stack ranking the choices. (Disclosure: I attended MIT. And I basically just applied to the top 5 or 10 computer science universities -- again, using rankings. And hoped to get into one of those.)
AtlasBarfed 7y ago
If you dropped 200k-300k on an education, you'll be invested in either the continued value or and improvement in your investment's reputation, which as the years go on is really its only value.

barry-cotter 7y ago

Not true of the UK, France, Korea or Japan. I don’t know if they care about what are basically league tables but any educated citizen would find it no more difficult to reel off five to ten of their best universities than an American would to list Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, MIT etc. I can see how it would look weird from a German, or possibly a Dutch or Nordic perspective but a deliberate effort to bring up the bottom and limited attempts to raise the top is extremely different from the US system, where there are large and growing returns to excellence. Also the US elite just have smaller enrollments as a share of population. Oxbridge, the grandes écoles or Korea’s top three enrol 1-2% of yearly students. The top ten US universities maybe a tenth of that.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
roel_v 7y ago
From within Dutch universities, rankings are considered very important (more by the non-academic staff than by the academics). The general public doesn't really care all that much yet, but they do more and more each year. It's especially for international (student) recruiting that the rankings (national and international) are important, and that's seeping through into everything else for last 10 years or so now. (not disagreeing with you, just adding some nuance about the direction of things)
- akjssdk 7y ago
  As a Dutch PhD student, I am not sure I agree. There is some hype around the rankings of the universities and specifically the bachelor and master tracks at a given university, but not many students really care about them. I certainly did not choose my university based on their ranking, and don't know many that did. Choice is based much more on travel distance and other factors, not on perceived quality of a university. I also would not be able to point out the best universities in the Netherlands, which says something as well.
  - roel_v 7y ago

talentedcoin 7y ago

Canadian university board member here ... Rankings drive enrolment, especially international enrolment, which is a major source of revenue. Also prestige helps to attract the best researchers, who are being wooed by many top schools.

ashtonkem 7y ago
Well, it did. We're going to see how unsustainable our secondary education system is without the children of rich foreign families to sustain it.

Prcmaker 7y ago

Australia here. Universities consistently market their national ranking here. As a staff member I've found management consistently pushes things that will raise their ranking. As a student initially at a high ranked university, I found I got a better education by switching to a much lower ranked university.

spideymans 7y ago
> As a student initially at a high ranked university, I found I got a better education by switching to a much lower ranked university. That’s interesting. I’ve consistently heard the same sentiment from ex-students and alumni of certain highly ranked Canadian universities (undergrad) as well. They’ll generally complain about a lack of student support and restrictive policies at these institutions, making it needlessly difficult for students to succeed. I suspect the higher ranked universities might be under pressure to artificially increase the difficulty of their programs, in order to distinguish their alumni from the alumni of other schools, who’s programs cover more or less the same subject matter.
- Prcmaker 7y ago
  In Australia, the rankings often seem to be based on outcomes unrelated to undergraduate studies (citation needed). I've found that makes for a situation where there is very little need to increase or maintain the quality of learning at the lower levels. While Uni Melbourne is consistently rated high[1], the quality of teaching and support was very poor[2] and opportunities within the university extremely limited. In contrast, when I moved interstate and transferred institutes, despite being at a much lower-ranked university I received (subjectively) better tuition and support from low and high-level staff. I was even (enthusiastically) given the opportunity to contribute to active research in my vacations. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Melbourne https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Melbourne [2] 3yrs Mech Eng undergraduate student first-hand experience.
- detaro 7y ago
  Also, which rankings are meaningfully measuring student experience and give it weight? I know some send around questionaires, but for the things I looked at it seemed a minor concern.

Consultant32452 7y ago

As a general rule, you aren't allowed admittance into the Cathedral unless you've demonstrated proper indoctrination at the most "prestigious" universities.

fergie 7y ago

I have worked at universities in the UK and Norway, and believe me, this stuff matters. A lot. Its great that students can make an informed choice about where to start, particularly if they do not come from an academic household. Its not a given that people have heard of places like MIT, and these lists are a somewhat neutral way of seeing which universities are the most "legit". You have to remember that a lot of low-quality institutions are marketing themselves pretty hard to students, and if it weren't for rankings it would be easy to make bad choices when choosing a place to study.

diiaann 7y ago

I was talking to a few European friends (1 Dutch, 1 French) and what they described was that even the most bright students typically go to their regional universities which are all "equally good". Here in the US, the rankings are almost a proxy for admissions rate. Since "top schools" are exclusive, the student population tends to be at least one the following: talented, precocious, or well-connected/rich. I attended a "top 25" university, which is a ways from the Stanford, Harvard, Yales of the world but the environment was very special. Hard to describe, but you are surrounded by passionate, ambitious people, you can't help but feel energized. Is this a fair system? That's a whole another conversation.