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Llvm is absolutely not the least effort for generating machine code. In many settings, it takes a fraction of the effort of integrating llvm to create a templat

Llvm is absolutely not the least effort for generating machine code. In many settings, it takes a fraction of the effort of integrating llvm to create a template compiler that goes straight to machine code. In many other cases, your best bet is to have your compiler emit C and then feed that to a C compiler of your choice. It’s good to have divergence. Competition is good. Otherwise people stop trying new things.

bluGill 7y ago
Depends on your goals. Writing a front end, optimizer and backend quickly gets to more work. I can write a c++ compiler in a few months. It won't be good and to make it good would be many many years of work. If I write a llvm backend it might take a little longer (I doubt it), but I automatically get all the optimizations llvm has plus a good front end that doesn't have bugs in obscure corner cases. (not claiming llvm is perfect but there will be less bugs)
- pizlonator 7y ago
  Still not as good as emitting C code in most cases? C code gets optimized using either llvm or any other optimizer so it’s a more portable compile target.
  - msla 7y ago
    When you emit C, you're limited by C, at least if you want to emit C as opposed to inline assembly wrapped in C. For example, it's harder to have a function return more than one value in C than it is in most architectures, you can't do things with processor flags (on architectures which have them), you're at the mercy of the C compiler's optimizer as to vectorization and loop unrolling, you can't always preserve semantic information in the source code even when a "reasonable" compiler would be able to use it to improve the machine code... LLVM was created to replace emitting C, by providing programmers a way to turn source code into a representation that is lower-level than C without having to write the whole optimization and assembly code generation pipeline.
    - Gibbon1 7y ago
      > it's harder to have a function return more than one value in C than it is in most architectures Biggest issue is the cultural aversion to returning structs and tagged unions.
      - a1369209993 7y ago
        And it's not even hard, just ugly. Which is much less of a problem for a compiler IR.
        pizlonator 7y ago
        That’s true. If you’re doing a lot of that then llvm ir might be nicer. Matter of taste of course.
        Gibbon1 7y ago
        Some syntactic sugar using anonymous structs and type inference would probably fix the ugly.
    - ufo 7y ago
      I think we can all agree that LLVM IR is a more powerful compilation target than C. However, what Pizlo was saying is that generating C can be simpler than generating LLVM IR. A bunch of printfs can get you very far.
      - pizlonator 7y ago
        There are very few things that you can say in LLVM IR that you can't say in C.
        ufo 7y ago
        I use C as a target for my own compiler and I agree that there are very few things that I miss. But the ones we do miss do stick out like a sore thumb. One of the main ones for me is a way to get an accurate stack map for precise garbage collection. With C you usually gotta go for a conservative GC, or you need to maintain a shadow stack. (Although I'll admit that the GC story with LLVM isn't super great either)
- MauranKilom 7y ago
  > I can write a c++ compiler in a few months. Not that it substantially distracts from your point, but I strongly doubt this. Or did you mean a heavily restricted subset of C++? A C++ front end alone is so complex to build that these guys make a living off of licensing their front end code: https://www.edg.com/ https://www.edg.com/ (Fun fact: Microsoft rebuilt IntelliSense for C++ on the EDG front end. Yes, that Microsoft with the MSVC compiler. See https://devblogs.microsoft.com/cppblog/rebuilding-intellisense/ https://devblogs.microsoft.com/cppblog/rebuilding-intellisen... and https://old.reddit.com/r/cpp/comments/bdt8ep/does_msvc_still_use_edg_as_c_frontend/el43m80/ https://old.reddit.com/r/cpp/comments/bdt8ep/does_msvc_still...) Even without compatibility cruft, you're looking at multiple 100k LOC if their code base is anything to go by. That's man-years, not man-months...
  - bluGill 7y ago
    Edg is writing a good front end. With good error handling and all of the other things that make a commercial program a few hundred times harder than a quick prototype. I'd be writing a brute force front end that is slow, and goes straight to assembly. If there is a syntax error I'll handle it by crashing. When you create a variable is used twice in a row I'll store the intermediate value back into memory and reload it back into my register. There have been write a c++ compiler classes that did it in a semester. I think they also do the standard library. (but that might be a year long course)
    - MauranKilom 7y ago
      I'm still awfully skeptical that you can get even close to understanding all the template, lookup, lifetime, lambda, exception and initialization rules in a semester (I assume that CS students are almost never this deep into C++ at that point). Not to speak of actually implementing all of it. I'd be curious where these classes draw the line. Do you happen to have a syllabus or so? I don't doubt you can implement a meaningful portion of C++ in a semester, but converting 500 pages of standardese into code within as many hours seems like an impossible goal for a class to me.
      - 7y ago

bluGill 7y ago

Depends on your goals. Writing a front end, optimizer and backend quickly gets to more work. I can write a c++ compiler in a few months. It won't be good and to make it good would be many many years of work. If I write a llvm backend it might take a little longer (I doubt it), but I automatically get all the optimizations llvm has plus a good front end that doesn't have bugs in obscure corner cases. (not claiming llvm is perfect but there will be less bugs)

pizlonator 7y ago
Still not as good as emitting C code in most cases? C code gets optimized using either llvm or any other optimizer so it’s a more portable compile target.
- msla 7y ago
  When you emit C, you're limited by C, at least if you want to emit C as opposed to inline assembly wrapped in C. For example, it's harder to have a function return more than one value in C than it is in most architectures, you can't do things with processor flags (on architectures which have them), you're at the mercy of the C compiler's optimizer as to vectorization and loop unrolling, you can't always preserve semantic information in the source code even when a "reasonable" compiler would be able to use it to improve the machine code... LLVM was created to replace emitting C, by providing programmers a way to turn source code into a representation that is lower-level than C without having to write the whole optimization and assembly code generation pipeline.
  - Gibbon1 7y ago
    > it's harder to have a function return more than one value in C than it is in most architectures Biggest issue is the cultural aversion to returning structs and tagged unions.
    - a1369209993 7y ago
      And it's not even hard, just ugly. Which is much less of a problem for a compiler IR.
      - pizlonator 7y ago
        That’s true. If you’re doing a lot of that then llvm ir might be nicer. Matter of taste of course.
      - Gibbon1 7y ago
        Some syntactic sugar using anonymous structs and type inference would probably fix the ugly.
  - ufo 7y ago
    I think we can all agree that LLVM IR is a more powerful compilation target than C. However, what Pizlo was saying is that generating C can be simpler than generating LLVM IR. A bunch of printfs can get you very far.
    - pizlonator 7y ago
      There are very few things that you can say in LLVM IR that you can't say in C.
      - ufo 7y ago
        I use C as a target for my own compiler and I agree that there are very few things that I miss. But the ones we do miss do stick out like a sore thumb. One of the main ones for me is a way to get an accurate stack map for precise garbage collection. With C you usually gotta go for a conservative GC, or you need to maintain a shadow stack. (Although I'll admit that the GC story with LLVM isn't super great either)
MauranKilom 7y ago
> I can write a c++ compiler in a few months. Not that it substantially distracts from your point, but I strongly doubt this. Or did you mean a heavily restricted subset of C++? A C++ front end alone is so complex to build that these guys make a living off of licensing their front end code: https://www.edg.com/ https://www.edg.com/ (Fun fact: Microsoft rebuilt IntelliSense for C++ on the EDG front end. Yes, that Microsoft with the MSVC compiler. See https://devblogs.microsoft.com/cppblog/rebuilding-intellisense/ https://devblogs.microsoft.com/cppblog/rebuilding-intellisen... and https://old.reddit.com/r/cpp/comments/bdt8ep/does_msvc_still_use_edg_as_c_frontend/el43m80/ https://old.reddit.com/r/cpp/comments/bdt8ep/does_msvc_still...) Even without compatibility cruft, you're looking at multiple 100k LOC if their code base is anything to go by. That's man-years, not man-months...
- bluGill 7y ago
  Edg is writing a good front end. With good error handling and all of the other things that make a commercial program a few hundred times harder than a quick prototype. I'd be writing a brute force front end that is slow, and goes straight to assembly. If there is a syntax error I'll handle it by crashing. When you create a variable is used twice in a row I'll store the intermediate value back into memory and reload it back into my register. There have been write a c++ compiler classes that did it in a semester. I think they also do the standard library. (but that might be a year long course)
  - MauranKilom 7y ago
    I'm still awfully skeptical that you can get even close to understanding all the template, lookup, lifetime, lambda, exception and initialization rules in a semester (I assume that CS students are almost never this deep into C++ at that point). Not to speak of actually implementing all of it. I'd be curious where these classes draw the line. Do you happen to have a syllabus or so? I don't doubt you can implement a meaningful portion of C++ in a semester, but converting 500 pages of standardese into code within as many hours seems like an impossible goal for a class to me.
    - 7y ago