4 ms·

It's not about logic at all. Addiction makes you crave something in an irrational way. Logic and thinking are not the proper tools to make you stop the cravin

It's not about logic at all. Addiction makes you crave something in an irrational way. Logic and thinking are not the proper tools to make you stop the craving. Look at the 12 steps program of AA, there are no "thinking" or "logic" steps. Recovering from addiction, as well as getting addicted, are mostly social and biological processes. You might want to read about the Rat Park experiment, here's a quick link: https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/substance-use-disorder/what-does-rat-park-teach-us-about-addiction https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/substance-use-disorder/what...

refurb 7y ago
It's not logic goes entirely out the window when you're addicted.
d4mi3n 7y ago
AA is also pretty well known for having very mixed success rates [1]. I believe the truth of the matter is people form addictions for a wide variety of social, psychological, and physiological reasons. 12 step programs work for about 40% of the people who participate, and a large portion of that success is attributed to the availability of such programs. [2] I believe logic has it’s place. Like a 12 step program, it won’t work for everyone, but there is a place for rational approaches to treatment of addictions. 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effectiveness_of_Alcoholics_Anonymous https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effectiveness_of_Alcoholics_... 2. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/evidence-based-living/202003/the-evidence-alcoholics-anonymous https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/evidence-based-livin...
- the_af 7y ago
  Excuse my ignorance, but is there an atheist form of AA and similar 12-steps programs? My knowledge of them is very limited to pop culture (like its depiction in TV shows such as The Wire, Breaking Bad and Grey's Anatomy), but their depictions always seemed annoying to me because they are all about god, submission to a "higher power", and "the original sin"/"flawed humans" in one way or the other. If you are actively atheist, you will find this approach off-putting and it won't help you.
  - lisper 7y ago
    Yes: https://www.addictionrecoveryguide.org/resources/recovery/rational_and_secular https://www.addictionrecoveryguide.org/resources/recovery/ra...
    - the_af 7y ago
      Interesting! I didn't know, for example, about Secular AA. Reading their brochure, however, it seems they are effectively not a 12-step program, since they ditch or ignore most of the steps (a must if they want to remain religion-neutral, since about half the steps mention god, a higher power or prayer in one way or the other). From their brochure: > "What about the 12 Steps? How can you be A.A. without following them? A.A. co-founder Bill W.’s thinking evolved on many issues [...] he wrote that, “so long as there is the slightest interest in sobriety, the most unmoral, the most antisocial, the most critical alcoholic may gather about him a few kindred spirits and announce to us that a new Alcoholic Aonymous group has been formed [...] these rampant individuals are still an AA group if they think so!”" That's a very lax definition. It's very hard to measure effectiveness with this...
  - zafka 7y ago
    Hi, Although AA references a "higher power" and a lot of their rituals are obviously based on Protestant Christianity, there are quite a few long term members who are openly agnostic or atheist. I myself prefer the term agnostic, as although I doubt there is a God out there, I would find it pretty cool if I was wrong. Anyhow, If that is what is keeping you or a friend from trying it out, please don't let that stop you. Also feel free to contact me, email in profile.
    - the_af 7y ago
      Thanks for the offer! I know it's a cliché to say this, but I'm not an addict (no alcohol, no drugs, no smoking, no overeating, nothing I'd consider an addiction. Maybe I could do more physical exercise though!) and I'm not looking for help for myself or anyone I know. I was just curious about this aspect of AA :) I'm not sure how standard AA can help an atheist, since about half their 12-steps mention god, submitting to a higher power or praying. If atheists say it helps them, I believe them -- who am I to doubt it? But I don't understand the principle at work.
olalonde 7y ago
The craving itself is irrational but logic and thinking are useful tools to stop. Allen Carr's "Easy Way to Stop Smoking" is a testament to that. While everyone knows that smoking is bad for health, many people don't know to what extent or have mistaken beliefs about the benefits of smoking.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
shadowprofile77 7y ago
You reply just sounds condescending. Yes, smokers (myself a smoker) know that their logic isn't ideal on this and we're aware that much of it is biological and emotional, but there is room for reasoning about when to try quitting for a less stressful and more likely optimal result. We're not simply blind rats in a cage just because we have this ferocious addiction, and we don't need to be implicitly told by others that all such reasoning about how or when to go about quitting is nonsense, that we "should just do it".
- ta1234567890 7y ago
  Sorry about the tone, wasn't my intention to be condescending. Just wanted to offer a different perspective. > we don't need to be implicitly told by others that all such reasoning about how or when to go about quitting is nonsense, that we "should just do it". Never said anything like that or even tried to imply it. I personally struggled with smoking for many years, and I don't wish that or any addiction struggle upon anyone. And because I've been there, I know logic and reasoning don't cut it. In my case, what pushed me to quit smoking was someone very close to me who helped me do it with some tough love and a lot of support. Definitely did not "just did it", but also reason didn't really play a central role either. Also no one said addicts were akin to blind rats in a cage. You might actually want to go and read about the rat park experiment. It basically suggests that our environment and overall social situation are way more important factors in triggering and sustaining addictions, rather than any individual trait or pre-condition.
  - shadowprofile77 7y ago
    Thank you for the apology and I myself apologize for my own annoyed tone. Your first comment just struck a chord with me and especially since I was out of cigarettes right when I read it (nasty little coincidences). That said, I agree that our social situation and environment have a lot to do with addiction, and definitely think this applies to cigarettes as well. Moving with the same thread in mind, this is also why I think attempting to quit, either cold turkey or incrementally, is usually better when one has the time and lack of other major stresses to seriously try it. I've had many periods of being near broke, barely making ends meet with work that is underpaid and difficulty focusing on the steps necessary to improve my situation. In such situations, smoking has been one of the small dirty pleasures that helps ease these anxieties. And if focusing is already difficult in such a crucial moment, well you can imagine trying to hold onto focus while also trying to quit. None of this is to downplay how dangerous it is to smoke under almost any circumstances, but i'd definitely say that there are both better moments and worse moments for trying to leave it behind.
eyelidlessness 7y ago
> It's not about logic at all. Yes, it is. Believe it or not, I described it. I wasn't describing the logic of being addicted, or of how to overcome addiction, but of conditions that affect the decision to try to quit. > Look at the 12 steps program of AA, there are no "thinking" or "logic" steps. You're either deliberately or ignorantly misrepresenting the 12 step program. They are nearly entirely about reasoning (even if you don't particularly subscribe to the suggested reasoning).

refurb 7y ago

It's not logic goes entirely out the window when you're addicted.

d4mi3n 7y ago

AA is also pretty well known for having very mixed success rates [1]. I believe the truth of the matter is people form addictions for a wide variety of social, psychological, and physiological reasons. 12 step programs work for about 40% of the people who participate, and a large portion of that success is attributed to the availability of such programs. [2] I believe logic has it’s place. Like a 12 step program, it won’t work for everyone, but there is a place for rational approaches to treatment of addictions. 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effectiveness_of_Alcoholics_Anonymous https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effectiveness_of_Alcoholics_... 2. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/evidence-based-living/202003/the-evidence-alcoholics-anonymous https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/evidence-based-livin...

the_af 7y ago
Excuse my ignorance, but is there an atheist form of AA and similar 12-steps programs? My knowledge of them is very limited to pop culture (like its depiction in TV shows such as The Wire, Breaking Bad and Grey's Anatomy), but their depictions always seemed annoying to me because they are all about god, submission to a "higher power", and "the original sin"/"flawed humans" in one way or the other. If you are actively atheist, you will find this approach off-putting and it won't help you.
- lisper 7y ago
  Yes: https://www.addictionrecoveryguide.org/resources/recovery/rational_and_secular https://www.addictionrecoveryguide.org/resources/recovery/ra...
  - the_af 7y ago
    Interesting! I didn't know, for example, about Secular AA. Reading their brochure, however, it seems they are effectively not a 12-step program, since they ditch or ignore most of the steps (a must if they want to remain religion-neutral, since about half the steps mention god, a higher power or prayer in one way or the other). From their brochure: > "What about the 12 Steps? How can you be A.A. without following them? A.A. co-founder Bill W.’s thinking evolved on many issues [...] he wrote that, “so long as there is the slightest interest in sobriety, the most unmoral, the most antisocial, the most critical alcoholic may gather about him a few kindred spirits and announce to us that a new Alcoholic Aonymous group has been formed [...] these rampant individuals are still an AA group if they think so!”" That's a very lax definition. It's very hard to measure effectiveness with this...
- zafka 7y ago
  Hi, Although AA references a "higher power" and a lot of their rituals are obviously based on Protestant Christianity, there are quite a few long term members who are openly agnostic or atheist. I myself prefer the term agnostic, as although I doubt there is a God out there, I would find it pretty cool if I was wrong. Anyhow, If that is what is keeping you or a friend from trying it out, please don't let that stop you. Also feel free to contact me, email in profile.
  - the_af 7y ago
    Thanks for the offer! I know it's a cliché to say this, but I'm not an addict (no alcohol, no drugs, no smoking, no overeating, nothing I'd consider an addiction. Maybe I could do more physical exercise though!) and I'm not looking for help for myself or anyone I know. I was just curious about this aspect of AA :) I'm not sure how standard AA can help an atheist, since about half their 12-steps mention god, submitting to a higher power or praying. If atheists say it helps them, I believe them -- who am I to doubt it? But I don't understand the principle at work.

olalonde 7y ago

The craving itself is irrational but logic and thinking are useful tools to stop. Allen Carr's "Easy Way to Stop Smoking" is a testament to that. While everyone knows that smoking is bad for health, many people don't know to what extent or have mistaken beliefs about the benefits of smoking.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

shadowprofile77 7y ago

You reply just sounds condescending. Yes, smokers (myself a smoker) know that their logic isn't ideal on this and we're aware that much of it is biological and emotional, but there is room for reasoning about when to try quitting for a less stressful and more likely optimal result. We're not simply blind rats in a cage just because we have this ferocious addiction, and we don't need to be implicitly told by others that all such reasoning about how or when to go about quitting is nonsense, that we "should just do it".

ta1234567890 7y ago
Sorry about the tone, wasn't my intention to be condescending. Just wanted to offer a different perspective. > we don't need to be implicitly told by others that all such reasoning about how or when to go about quitting is nonsense, that we "should just do it". Never said anything like that or even tried to imply it. I personally struggled with smoking for many years, and I don't wish that or any addiction struggle upon anyone. And because I've been there, I know logic and reasoning don't cut it. In my case, what pushed me to quit smoking was someone very close to me who helped me do it with some tough love and a lot of support. Definitely did not "just did it", but also reason didn't really play a central role either. Also no one said addicts were akin to blind rats in a cage. You might actually want to go and read about the rat park experiment. It basically suggests that our environment and overall social situation are way more important factors in triggering and sustaining addictions, rather than any individual trait or pre-condition.
- shadowprofile77 7y ago
  Thank you for the apology and I myself apologize for my own annoyed tone. Your first comment just struck a chord with me and especially since I was out of cigarettes right when I read it (nasty little coincidences). That said, I agree that our social situation and environment have a lot to do with addiction, and definitely think this applies to cigarettes as well. Moving with the same thread in mind, this is also why I think attempting to quit, either cold turkey or incrementally, is usually better when one has the time and lack of other major stresses to seriously try it. I've had many periods of being near broke, barely making ends meet with work that is underpaid and difficulty focusing on the steps necessary to improve my situation. In such situations, smoking has been one of the small dirty pleasures that helps ease these anxieties. And if focusing is already difficult in such a crucial moment, well you can imagine trying to hold onto focus while also trying to quit. None of this is to downplay how dangerous it is to smoke under almost any circumstances, but i'd definitely say that there are both better moments and worse moments for trying to leave it behind.

eyelidlessness 7y ago

> It's not about logic at all. Yes, it is. Believe it or not, I described it. I wasn't describing the logic of being addicted, or of how to overcome addiction, but of conditions that affect the decision to try to quit. > Look at the 12 steps program of AA, there are no "thinking" or "logic" steps. You're either deliberately or ignorantly misrepresenting the 12 step program. They are nearly entirely about reasoning (even if you don't particularly subscribe to the suggested reasoning).