6 ms·

Home NAS tech has mostly stagnated because of LAN speeds. Any improvement on the NAS side will not translate to real life performance gains. Almost nobody has 2

Home NAS tech has mostly stagnated because of LAN speeds. Any improvement on the NAS side will not translate to real life performance gains. Almost nobody has 2.5/5/10G network cards or switches, most people probably don't even want them at today's costs (vicious cycle) and power consumption. Pretty sure if you ask 95+% of them they'd rather have faster, more stable WiFi. Manufacturers settled on exactly what can saturate a GbE line, with minimal power consumption, heat generation, noise, size, and most importantly price. There are options for 10G to fit every need but none will come cheap.

InTheArena 7y ago
The nice thing is that Ubiquiti and others are moving to a new set of switches that seem to make 10Gig much cheaper. (Check out the new 10gGIGE UDM Pro and switches). That should change the equation... eventually.
- tecleandor 7y ago
  Mikrotik has a bunch of very affordable 10G switches too :)
  - StillBored 7y ago
    Still SFP based though, netgear has an 8 port + 2 10GbaseT which does 2.5/5 as well for ~$150 (GS110MX). Which is a real upgrade path, particularly for POE wifi AP's, and people unable/uninterested in pulling cable. The problem with 10G is that the datacenter/nerds are still pushing sfp/fibre. Which completely misunderstands how people actually use 1G today. These 10GbaseT switches are literally drop in replacements for existing switches, and as the need arises cables can be upgraded. Which it turns out for home use, properly terminated cat5e works just fine at 10Gbit.
    - justincormack 7y ago
      We seem to have recently switched from 10GbaseT to SFP but with reasonably cheap 10GBaseT adaptors, https://www.servethehome.com/sfp-to-10gbase-t-adapter-module-buyers-guide/ https://www.servethehome.com/sfp-to-10gbase-t-adapter-module... with cheaper switches and more widely available cards. Even motherboards have switched to sfp, but you dont have to use fibre. DAC is another cheap option for short distances with SFP.
      - tecleandor 7y ago
        I've been using a mix of DAC cables and 10G Base SR, which are quite cheap and convenient. I'm using Mikrotik switches and FS modules and seem to work fine.
- jdsully 7y ago
  The UDM Pro is just a run of the mill switch with 10gig backplane. We really need to start seeing true 8 port 10gig switches at reasonable prices for this to take off. This 4 port Mirotik product is a good first start: https://mikrotik.com/product/crs305_1g_4s_in https://mikrotik.com/product/crs305_1g_4s_in
- hhw 7y ago
  You're unlikely to see anywhere near line rate though, especially with higher packets/s, as cheaper equipment tends to use CPU based forwarding. Whereas ASICs based gear, even when using merchant silicon like Broadcom or Marvell, still cost a decent amount.
- fomine3 7y ago
  QNAP also offers cheap 10G unmanaged switches that I've bought. It looks like more consumer-oriented compared to Ubiquiti/MikroTik.
tedunangst 7y ago
Switches with two 10G ports aren't that expensive, and would support hooking a main desktop up to a NAS, while offering basic connectivity to other systems. Or for that matter, since many systems with 10G also have 1G ports, you can direct connect them, which is how I have two computers. Switched LAN to talk to everything, DAC cable to each other.
technofiend 7y ago
I thought that way too until recently, but MicroTik has moved aggressively into this market and has a variety of switch offerings including the Mikrotik CRS305-1G-4S+IN Switch with 4 SFP+ 10Gbps Ports and 1 Gigabit Ethernet Port. At least for a home power user serving NAS to a few high speed clients, that $150ish switch is sufficient, but if not then MikroTik makes larger switches with more ports.
- close04 7y ago
  > At least for a home power user Obviously if you are an HN reader you fall under the <5% :). If you have the need and are a power user there are options. The best one right now being the second hand market. I was eying a couple of Intel X540-T2 (~60-80E on eBay) or Mellanox ConnectX-2 (under 50E), not yet decided on the switch. But realistically speaking, most people don't want to pay even 10E for any of this. They don't transfer bulk data or not over cable so they don't care about DIYing their network, especially once they realize everything is more expensive (cards, switches, NAS, maybe even cables). 2.5G and up has to go into ISP routers for it to really take off and become cheaper. And even then most users will still want better WiFi and not care about cables (and still most don't go for a decent AP and use the ISP router WiFi.
  - technofiend 7y ago
    Interestingly 2.5Gb cable modems are also imminent. Yes early adopters are the market right now but as they purchase equipment it will drive down adoption costs due to economy of scale gradually kicking in.
    - close04 7y ago
      Going to 2.5G seems like a wasted opportunity to go "big" without causing disruptions repeatedly or have "too much" extra cost. From the user perspective at least there's pretty much no difference between 2.5G and 5G in terms of cost and inconvenience of upgrading all the hardware). But for the manufacturers and ISPs I imagine at that large scale the relatively small cost savings add up. And why waste a good opportunity to sell an intermediary tech. They'll be able to sell 5G/10G in a few years.
windexh8er 7y ago
I'd disagree here. I have multiple devices in my home server rack that have native 10Gb. 10Gb PHY/SFP+ are dirt cheap these days as well. And if you want you can get a 10Gb DAC cable (fused SFP+ connectors) for under $20. 10Gb at home, today, is not expensive and is not a high consumer of power. PoE uses more power than 10Gb in switching - and that's relatively consumer friendly at this point (mainly for PoE IP cameras). I agree, most people care more about stable WiFi, but for the prosumer home lab - 10Gb has been low cost all around for a few years already.
- the_hoser 7y ago
  You have a home server rack. That places you comfortably in the "almost" part of "almost nobody".
  - snuxoll 7y ago
    As somebody with one as well, it’s very true. However I don’t expect 10Gb networking is going to stay out of actual prosumer and SOHO spaces (versus /r/homelab subscribers) for much longer. While consumers are moving more to streaming and offloading their stuff to the cloud, creators are going to need more bandwidth on their internal networks. Really the killer right now is 10Gb over twisted pair is a power sucking beast; and people are (rightly) not wanting to abandon the familiarity, ubiquity and ease of installation granted by it. More PC motherboards and assembled systems are shipping with 10Gb NIC’s, we’re just waiting on switching to be affordable and fairly quiet before it can take off.
    - mattkrause 7y ago
      I work at a major research institute/hospital. We still have 100 Mbps connections everywhere, with a few 1 Gbps ports available if you beg (and pay!). We still move data around by sneakernet--a briskly walking postdoc can move a Tb/minute with a hard drive in their pocket. I would love 10 Gbps connections, but I don't think they're right around the corner.
      - 7y ago
linsomniac 7y ago
True if you are putting it through a switch, but you could direct connect the NAS to your main computer to get 10gig cheap.
- close04 7y ago
  > cheap Anything can be "cheap" arbitrarily. Just a few comments above other people insist 10G/40G switches and setups are "cheap". But there's a reason people don't flock to buy these for home. Most don't feel they need them enough to justify the extra cost and effort of buying. You can be sure that tech preferences of HN people are as far from generally applicable as it gets.

InTheArena 7y ago

The nice thing is that Ubiquiti and others are moving to a new set of switches that seem to make 10Gig much cheaper. (Check out the new 10gGIGE UDM Pro and switches). That should change the equation... eventually.

tecleandor 7y ago
Mikrotik has a bunch of very affordable 10G switches too :)
- StillBored 7y ago
  Still SFP based though, netgear has an 8 port + 2 10GbaseT which does 2.5/5 as well for ~$150 (GS110MX). Which is a real upgrade path, particularly for POE wifi AP's, and people unable/uninterested in pulling cable. The problem with 10G is that the datacenter/nerds are still pushing sfp/fibre. Which completely misunderstands how people actually use 1G today. These 10GbaseT switches are literally drop in replacements for existing switches, and as the need arises cables can be upgraded. Which it turns out for home use, properly terminated cat5e works just fine at 10Gbit.
  - justincormack 7y ago
    We seem to have recently switched from 10GbaseT to SFP but with reasonably cheap 10GBaseT adaptors, https://www.servethehome.com/sfp-to-10gbase-t-adapter-module-buyers-guide/ https://www.servethehome.com/sfp-to-10gbase-t-adapter-module... with cheaper switches and more widely available cards. Even motherboards have switched to sfp, but you dont have to use fibre. DAC is another cheap option for short distances with SFP.
    - tecleandor 7y ago
      I've been using a mix of DAC cables and 10G Base SR, which are quite cheap and convenient. I'm using Mikrotik switches and FS modules and seem to work fine.
jdsully 7y ago
The UDM Pro is just a run of the mill switch with 10gig backplane. We really need to start seeing true 8 port 10gig switches at reasonable prices for this to take off. This 4 port Mirotik product is a good first start: https://mikrotik.com/product/crs305_1g_4s_in https://mikrotik.com/product/crs305_1g_4s_in
hhw 7y ago
You're unlikely to see anywhere near line rate though, especially with higher packets/s, as cheaper equipment tends to use CPU based forwarding. Whereas ASICs based gear, even when using merchant silicon like Broadcom or Marvell, still cost a decent amount.
fomine3 7y ago
QNAP also offers cheap 10G unmanaged switches that I've bought. It looks like more consumer-oriented compared to Ubiquiti/MikroTik.

tedunangst 7y ago

Switches with two 10G ports aren't that expensive, and would support hooking a main desktop up to a NAS, while offering basic connectivity to other systems. Or for that matter, since many systems with 10G also have 1G ports, you can direct connect them, which is how I have two computers. Switched LAN to talk to everything, DAC cable to each other.

technofiend 7y ago

I thought that way too until recently, but MicroTik has moved aggressively into this market and has a variety of switch offerings including the Mikrotik CRS305-1G-4S+IN Switch with 4 SFP+ 10Gbps Ports and 1 Gigabit Ethernet Port. At least for a home power user serving NAS to a few high speed clients, that $150ish switch is sufficient, but if not then MikroTik makes larger switches with more ports.

close04 7y ago
> At least for a home power user Obviously if you are an HN reader you fall under the <5% :). If you have the need and are a power user there are options. The best one right now being the second hand market. I was eying a couple of Intel X540-T2 (~60-80E on eBay) or Mellanox ConnectX-2 (under 50E), not yet decided on the switch. But realistically speaking, most people don't want to pay even 10E for any of this. They don't transfer bulk data or not over cable so they don't care about DIYing their network, especially once they realize everything is more expensive (cards, switches, NAS, maybe even cables). 2.5G and up has to go into ISP routers for it to really take off and become cheaper. And even then most users will still want better WiFi and not care about cables (and still most don't go for a decent AP and use the ISP router WiFi.
- technofiend 7y ago
  Interestingly 2.5Gb cable modems are also imminent. Yes early adopters are the market right now but as they purchase equipment it will drive down adoption costs due to economy of scale gradually kicking in.
  - close04 7y ago
    Going to 2.5G seems like a wasted opportunity to go "big" without causing disruptions repeatedly or have "too much" extra cost. From the user perspective at least there's pretty much no difference between 2.5G and 5G in terms of cost and inconvenience of upgrading all the hardware). But for the manufacturers and ISPs I imagine at that large scale the relatively small cost savings add up. And why waste a good opportunity to sell an intermediary tech. They'll be able to sell 5G/10G in a few years.

windexh8er 7y ago

I'd disagree here. I have multiple devices in my home server rack that have native 10Gb. 10Gb PHY/SFP+ are dirt cheap these days as well. And if you want you can get a 10Gb DAC cable (fused SFP+ connectors) for under $20. 10Gb at home, today, is not expensive and is not a high consumer of power. PoE uses more power than 10Gb in switching - and that's relatively consumer friendly at this point (mainly for PoE IP cameras). I agree, most people care more about stable WiFi, but for the prosumer home lab - 10Gb has been low cost all around for a few years already.

the_hoser 7y ago
You have a home server rack. That places you comfortably in the "almost" part of "almost nobody".
- snuxoll 7y ago
  As somebody with one as well, it’s very true. However I don’t expect 10Gb networking is going to stay out of actual prosumer and SOHO spaces (versus /r/homelab subscribers) for much longer. While consumers are moving more to streaming and offloading their stuff to the cloud, creators are going to need more bandwidth on their internal networks. Really the killer right now is 10Gb over twisted pair is a power sucking beast; and people are (rightly) not wanting to abandon the familiarity, ubiquity and ease of installation granted by it. More PC motherboards and assembled systems are shipping with 10Gb NIC’s, we’re just waiting on switching to be affordable and fairly quiet before it can take off.
  - mattkrause 7y ago
    I work at a major research institute/hospital. We still have 100 Mbps connections everywhere, with a few 1 Gbps ports available if you beg (and pay!). We still move data around by sneakernet--a briskly walking postdoc can move a Tb/minute with a hard drive in their pocket. I would love 10 Gbps connections, but I don't think they're right around the corner.
    - 7y ago

linsomniac 7y ago

True if you are putting it through a switch, but you could direct connect the NAS to your main computer to get 10gig cheap.

close04 7y ago
> cheap Anything can be "cheap" arbitrarily. Just a few comments above other people insist 10G/40G switches and setups are "cheap". But there's a reason people don't flock to buy these for home. Most don't feel they need them enough to justify the extra cost and effort of buying. You can be sure that tech preferences of HN people are as far from generally applicable as it gets.