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The thing about bike commuting for a couple decades is you quickly learn that about half of the streets and and bike lanes are complete no go zone death traps,

by noad 6y ago

The thing about bike commuting for a couple decades is you quickly learn that about half of the streets and and bike lanes are complete no go zone death traps, and there is no good way to really build this knowledge aside from just learning where you're going to get turned into repeatedly. My city is super progressive and bike friendly, but even then it's effectively suicide to try and use certain bike lanes and everyone just has this communal knowledge.

Bud 6y ago
I can think of ways to build this knowledge: a) capture routes of bike trips taken while using nav apps b) send camera-laden cars around, the same way these maps were originally built, and this time, measure bike trips c) ask bicyclists If everyone really has this communal knowledge, as you say, then it can be gathered.
- usrusr 6y ago
  > capture routes of bike trips taken while using nav apps Still fails to capture individual preferences which are often complete opposites, sometimes even for the same person on different occasions. When I'm riding fast I greatly prefer proximity to cars over proximity to pedestrians or slow cyclists, it's much safer because even the worst drivers are more predictable than average pedestrians, and the speed difference between fast cycling and urban driving is quite small anyways. In terms of injuries it doesn't matter much who takes you down. When I'm riding slow those preferences (and the safety considerations they are based on) are completely inverted.
r00fus 6y ago
This is interesting. I know of places where it's dangerous to ride in my city (for one of two reasons: 1. more accidents happen there statistically or 2. narrow shoulder / no bike lane so it's unsafe unless you occupy a lane of traffic) - but what do you consider "death traps"?
- RandallBrown 6y ago
  One thing I've heard of is "The Right Hook". The bike lane is on the right edge of the road. When a car is making a right turn, they don't look behind them, make a right turn, and a cyclist crashes into them. Seattle has a similar problem with some 1 way streets with a bike lane on the left side. At least 1 person has died.
  - MiroF 6y ago
    > At least 1 person has died. Far more people have died from the right hook, it's biking's "most feared crash." You have to constantly watch out for oblivious drivers.
    - mauvehaus 6y ago
      Speaking as a cyclist, it's extremely uncommon that you have to put yourself in a position that you can be right hooked. Cyclists need to educate themselves about road safety and take a share of the responsibility for their own safety. What really pisses me off about this is that the only time people discuss the safety of cyclists is in the wake of a fatal crash. If you dare to suggest that cyclists often have choices that can prevent the crash, you get called out for victim blaming. It's bullshit to shut down discussion of things people can do to protect themselves because of some misguided respect for the dead. For goodness' sake talk about it so people on the streets are armed with the knowledge that will save their lives so we aren't having the same discussion again and again and again. It doesn't matter what the law says, it doesn't matter who had the right to occupy that bit of the road, it matters that cyclists keep dying because they're the more vulnerable road user. It's naive to think that we're going to train every driver to do the safe thing. It's far more realistic to educate the people with the most to lose (i.e. the cyclists) to do the safe thing regardless of whether the drivers around them are aware of them or not.
      - MiroF 6y ago
        > it's extremely uncommon that you have to put yourself in a position that you can be right hooked I'm not so sure. I think there are definitely things to do that can make you avoid the vast majority of these incidents (don't bike to the right of a car when an intersection is coming up if you can avoid, obviously look at the car's turn signals before passing them on the right, pass on the left when you think someone will turn right, etc.), but there are plenty of instances where it is not avoidable and even experienced cyclists can get right-hooked (like biking on a bike lane on a heavily trafficked road with many side streets to turn off of). > It's naive to think that we're going to train every driver to do the safe thing. I think it's not an either-or. I don't think that we have to throw in the towel on every effort to change behavior - people have been convinced to stop littering to a massive extent, checking your right mirror seems minor in comparison.
MiroF 6y ago
> even then it's effectively suicide to try and use certain bike lanes and everyone just has this communal knowledge. As a lifelong city biker, I am curious what exactly you are talking about. Certainly, there are some roads where you're more likely to be hooked by someone turning on right (Market St in SF comes to mind), but not a "no go zone"?
grawprog 6y ago
Dunno about no go zones, but the bike lane next to my old place was pretty horrendous. It went down a fairly steep slope next to a four lane road, about halfway down the hill the lane cuts across into the middle of the street about 100m up from a 4 way intersection with a highway. You have the cross the highway in the very center of the intersection, between all the cars, then on the other side, the bike lane cuts back across traffic, then vanishes for a block or so before starting again on the sidewalk. The first time I rode my bike down there I terrified. You don't have much time to react, the hill creates a blind spot at the point where you have to cross traffic and because the road is used by people trying to beat traffic during rush hour, drivers speed constantly and don't really pay attention. Just on foot i've almost been hit by cars a few times at the top of the hill. Definitely not my favourite route.
egypturnash 6y ago
Any time I take a new route and start seeing ghost bikes chained up along it, I know it is a bad place to bike.
upofadown 6y ago
The Oahu bike map does a green/yellow/red classification which seemed useful: * https://www.hbl.org/oahubikemap/ https://www.hbl.org/oahubikemap/

by noad 6y ago

Bud 6y ago

I can think of ways to build this knowledge: a) capture routes of bike trips taken while using nav apps b) send camera-laden cars around, the same way these maps were originally built, and this time, measure bike trips c) ask bicyclists If everyone really has this communal knowledge, as you say, then it can be gathered.

usrusr 6y ago
> capture routes of bike trips taken while using nav apps Still fails to capture individual preferences which are often complete opposites, sometimes even for the same person on different occasions. When I'm riding fast I greatly prefer proximity to cars over proximity to pedestrians or slow cyclists, it's much safer because even the worst drivers are more predictable than average pedestrians, and the speed difference between fast cycling and urban driving is quite small anyways. In terms of injuries it doesn't matter much who takes you down. When I'm riding slow those preferences (and the safety considerations they are based on) are completely inverted.

r00fus 6y ago

This is interesting. I know of places where it's dangerous to ride in my city (for one of two reasons: 1. more accidents happen there statistically or 2. narrow shoulder / no bike lane so it's unsafe unless you occupy a lane of traffic) - but what do you consider "death traps"?

RandallBrown 6y ago
One thing I've heard of is "The Right Hook". The bike lane is on the right edge of the road. When a car is making a right turn, they don't look behind them, make a right turn, and a cyclist crashes into them. Seattle has a similar problem with some 1 way streets with a bike lane on the left side. At least 1 person has died.
- MiroF 6y ago
  > At least 1 person has died. Far more people have died from the right hook, it's biking's "most feared crash." You have to constantly watch out for oblivious drivers.
  - mauvehaus 6y ago
    Speaking as a cyclist, it's extremely uncommon that you have to put yourself in a position that you can be right hooked. Cyclists need to educate themselves about road safety and take a share of the responsibility for their own safety. What really pisses me off about this is that the only time people discuss the safety of cyclists is in the wake of a fatal crash. If you dare to suggest that cyclists often have choices that can prevent the crash, you get called out for victim blaming. It's bullshit to shut down discussion of things people can do to protect themselves because of some misguided respect for the dead. For goodness' sake talk about it so people on the streets are armed with the knowledge that will save their lives so we aren't having the same discussion again and again and again. It doesn't matter what the law says, it doesn't matter who had the right to occupy that bit of the road, it matters that cyclists keep dying because they're the more vulnerable road user. It's naive to think that we're going to train every driver to do the safe thing. It's far more realistic to educate the people with the most to lose (i.e. the cyclists) to do the safe thing regardless of whether the drivers around them are aware of them or not.
    - MiroF 6y ago
      > it's extremely uncommon that you have to put yourself in a position that you can be right hooked I'm not so sure. I think there are definitely things to do that can make you avoid the vast majority of these incidents (don't bike to the right of a car when an intersection is coming up if you can avoid, obviously look at the car's turn signals before passing them on the right, pass on the left when you think someone will turn right, etc.), but there are plenty of instances where it is not avoidable and even experienced cyclists can get right-hooked (like biking on a bike lane on a heavily trafficked road with many side streets to turn off of). > It's naive to think that we're going to train every driver to do the safe thing. I think it's not an either-or. I don't think that we have to throw in the towel on every effort to change behavior - people have been convinced to stop littering to a massive extent, checking your right mirror seems minor in comparison.

MiroF 6y ago

> even then it's effectively suicide to try and use certain bike lanes and everyone just has this communal knowledge. As a lifelong city biker, I am curious what exactly you are talking about. Certainly, there are some roads where you're more likely to be hooked by someone turning on right (Market St in SF comes to mind), but not a "no go zone"?

grawprog 6y ago

Dunno about no go zones, but the bike lane next to my old place was pretty horrendous. It went down a fairly steep slope next to a four lane road, about halfway down the hill the lane cuts across into the middle of the street about 100m up from a 4 way intersection with a highway. You have the cross the highway in the very center of the intersection, between all the cars, then on the other side, the bike lane cuts back across traffic, then vanishes for a block or so before starting again on the sidewalk. The first time I rode my bike down there I terrified. You don't have much time to react, the hill creates a blind spot at the point where you have to cross traffic and because the road is used by people trying to beat traffic during rush hour, drivers speed constantly and don't really pay attention. Just on foot i've almost been hit by cars a few times at the top of the hill. Definitely not my favourite route.

egypturnash 6y ago

Any time I take a new route and start seeing ghost bikes chained up along it, I know it is a bad place to bike.

upofadown 6y ago

The Oahu bike map does a green/yellow/red classification which seemed useful: * https://www.hbl.org/oahubikemap/ https://www.hbl.org/oahubikemap/