9 ms·

New Zealand relied on science and empathy

79 points by colinprince 7y ago

coder1001 7y ago
Amazing Prime Minister leading the country through the 15th of March terrorist attack, the aftermath, and then this Covid-19 crises! Second female leader to have a baby while in office! All that in less than 3 years being elected at a young age. Just wow!
- cgh 7y ago
  Yes, she must surely rank at the top of the heap of western leaders. Here in British Columbia, we have very roughly the same population but whereas NZ has had twelve deaths because Ardern took early and decisive action based on the science, we've had 86 deaths because of hand-wringing and indecision.
  - oh_sigh 7y ago
    Are the 86 deaths attestable only to the BC premier? Or could it also be the fault of the federal government? Presumably the leader of a small nation has a wider latitude for action to them than the leader of a similarly sized region which is contained in a larger country.
    - vkou 7y ago
      Both. BC dragged its feet on implementing a lockdown, the federal government had to be dragged kicking and screaming into closing its borders. Travelers from China weren't even quarantined throughout February, for instance. Anecdotally, I have heard that Chinese-Canadian communities took the issue seriously on their own, and started practicing social distancing in February... Which may well have helped. It's looking better than Ontario and Quebec, but it could have looked even better, had it acted sooner.
      - deskamess 7y ago
        It was a Chinese Canadian family who reported to BC Health that a family member who went back to China had tested positive. The individual had visited two health clinics in BC with symptoms, and was dismissed, before going back to China at the end of the trip. I believe this was one of the first 3 cases reported in BC. This was commendable and very forward thinking of the family. Many times there is a stigma in Eastern countries about being the early carrier of disease etc.
  - ska 7y ago
    I think that is being a bit harsh on BC - it is looking pretty good compared to basically all the rest of North America; not perfect, but acted sensibly for the most part.
    - cgh 7y ago
      Yes, but considering eg the shitshow down south or in Quebec, that is damning it with faint praise. The fact remains that BC has seven times the deaths of New Zealand. One thing BC has in its favour is a reasonably common-sense population that more or less understands the gravity of the situation, particularly the Chinese community. People have been good with social distancing and so forth. But BC Parks should have closed sooner, Bonnie Henry should not have been encouraging people to "continue to go to Whistler", and so forth.
      - ashtonkem 7y ago
        You do need to evaluate that 7x in the light of the exponential growth we’re seeing in other areas.
      - ska 7y ago
        I disagree. Globally, it's pretty solidly in the "did sensible things, had better results" column along with NZ. Certainly not perfect, of course.
- Barrin92 7y ago
  Part that stood out for me >Unlike the countries that declared "war on Covid-19", the government's message was that of a country coming together. It urged people to "Unite Against Covid-19". Ms Ardern has repeatedly called the country "our team of five million". The wonders of having a young woman in charge rather than a testosterone-laden septuagenarian. Being German I'm also glad Merkel is in charge over here and her measured response rather than banging on the war drums reassured me as well.
kolikotime 7y ago
New Zealand also is a relatively isolated warm island nation with far less international travel to it than literally the rest of the Western World. So please excuse me with all of the tribute to it for its performance.
- renewiltord 7y ago
  Interesting. Lets run a quick comparison between Louisiana and New Zealand. Temperature today: Auckland peaks at 19 C, New Orleans at 25 C Population: NZ 4.8 million, Lousiana 4.7 million Density: NZ 18 / sq. km, Lousiana 34 / sq. km COVID cases (deaths): NZ 1445 (13) , Lousiana 24523 (1328)
  - Aaronstotle 7y ago
    Louisiana also had Mardi Gras, which brought in tons of people from around the country to New Orleans, likely spreading Covid
    - mdszy 7y ago
      Which should have obviously been canceled, clearly highlighting incredibly poor response.
      - ced 7y ago
        It was on February 25th. Most of North America didn't do anything until mid-March, no?
        mdszy 7y ago
        That's part of the bad response.
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
  - rriepe 7y ago
notacoward 7y ago
41 years + 1 day ago, my mother and I returned to the US from New Zealand. Every time I see a story like this, I wonder if that was really such a great idea. Good for them. I'd be pleased and proud to have Jacinda Ardern leading my country.
- cflewis 7y ago
  I lived there for a couple years about a decade ago. I left because the job opportunities for highly-qualified software engineers in NZ was basically zero. The only real option presented for Kiwis was to move to Sydney. It is very frustrating to hear multinationals opening offices in Sydney and saying "New Zealand people can work there too, it's all the same" when it's not. American companies open Canadian offices all the time because the cultures are different. Australia and New Zealand have the same relationship: same language, different cultures. It grinds my gears to this day because I would love to return for good, but I can't/won't give up my career, and I don't really want to move to Sydney. I want to move to New Zealand.
  - edsrzf 7y ago
    I live in Auckland and the tech scene has really been booming in the last year or two. Obviously it's no SF bay area, and there are now companies struggling in the current economic conditions, but it may be worth another look in, say, a year.
    - y-c-o-m-b 7y ago
      Is there still a shortage of qualified tech workers and do you know if they make exceptions for those that don't meet the required amount of points for immigration? I'm short by 5 points because I don't have a degree (but I have well over a decade of experience in software development). EDIT: N/M looks like I can get in easily if I'm offered a job by an NZ employer listed as an "absolute skill shortage", so I guess I answered my own question. I'm using this tool for anyone curious: https://www.immigration.govt.nz/new-zealand-visas/apply-for-a-visa/tools-and-information/tools/points-indicator-smc-28aug https://www.immigration.govt.nz/new-zealand-visas/apply-for-...
ravenstine 7y ago
I see nothing in this article that suggests that New Zealand was particularly scientific in their response in contrast with other countries. This idea comes from someone's viewpoint of NZ's relationship with the scientific community, but that doesn't really demonstrate that their leaders responded in line with whatever scientific evidence there is. This comes of as yet another "I f*ing love science" type news story.
- notahacker 7y ago
  Not sure they were massively more empathetic either. The reality is that because it's an isolated island whose countrymen aren't regularly jetting back and forth it had relatively few cases in mid March and found it completely practical to quarantine everybody who had been overseas for 14 days at that point. Fiji's doing pretty well apart from the tourist industry too, and I'm not sure their government is also outstandingly scientific or empathetic. Certainly, some countries have done much more counterproductive things than NZ and some countries would have had better capacity to respond if they listened to epidemiologists more. But for all the UK government has legitimately been criticised for being slow to respond and poor at communicating, it went into lockdown on exactly the same day as NZ. It just likely had at least two or three orders of magnitude more cases at the time.
  - ghaff 7y ago
    I strongly suspect that by the time this is done we will have some handle of things that could have reasonably been done differently in different places without the full benefit of hindsight. And some of the policies that were clearly counterproductive. I also suspect we'll probably find that some things that people have very strong and strident opinions about don't strongly correlate to results across regions. And that the reasons why things were so different between a lot of country or state As and country or state Bs will either be unclear or be the result of factors that couldn't really be mitigated.
    - im3w1l 7y ago
      I think "correlates" already is the wrong way to look at this as it implies a kind linear model, but we know it's much more complicated than that. You can't look at a single policy in isolation, you have to look at it as part of a strategy. Then there is also flawed implementations of fundamentally sound ideas to take into account.
glofish 7y ago
A surviorship bias at its finest. There are so many aspects of this disease we don't understand, trumpeting various accomplishments on incomplete data helps no one. It is a small, isolated island nation, neither the measures taken nor the expected outcomes of same measures are representative for larger societies. If anything Germany is far better case on how to manage an outbreak than New Zealand.
Mikeb85 7y ago
The fact it's an isolated island with a small population and it's their summer no doubt helps too...
- drocer88 7y ago
  Most of the countries that ran balanced budgets performed well : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_government_budget https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_governmen...
- robocat 7y ago
  “Tourism is New Zealand's largest export industry in terms of foreign exchange earnings. It directly employs one in eight New Zealanders.“ NZ is highly connected, and it gets a significant number of tourists from China. Summer is the high season for tourism. So if anything, NZ should be hit harder than many less connected states/countries.
  - Mikeb85 7y ago
    Still easier to seal the border when you're an island. And summer matters because most scientists think hot weather slows the virus' ability to spread.
    - robocat 7y ago
      Sure, but the border was sealed after 100s of thousands of tourists, and hundreds of infected cases arriving from overseas. This was before we had any ability to test for the virus. Returning NZers were asked to self-quarantine for two weeks, and I’m guessing the majority did. NZ has temperate weather - it is not a hot country: https://weatherspark.com/m/144837/3/Average-Weather-in-March-in-Christchurch-New-Zealand https://weatherspark.com/m/144837/3/Average-Weather-in-March... In March in Christchurch (approx 1/10th NZ population) the temperature would be called “cool”. I think you are rationalising.
- nisse72 7y ago
  Actually it's been autumn here for 2 months.
bioinformatics 7y ago
Did they rely on geography too?
jessaustin 7y ago
Small nations are easier to govern in reasonable and just fashion than large nations. Therefore, nations should be small rather than large.

79 points by colinprince 7y ago

Amazing Prime Minister leading the country through the 15th of March terrorist attack, the aftermath, and then this Covid-19 crises! Second female leader to have a baby while in office! All that in less than 3 years being elected at a young age. Just wow!

cgh 7y ago
Yes, she must surely rank at the top of the heap of western leaders. Here in British Columbia, we have very roughly the same population but whereas NZ has had twelve deaths because Ardern took early and decisive action based on the science, we've had 86 deaths because of hand-wringing and indecision.
- oh_sigh 7y ago
  Are the 86 deaths attestable only to the BC premier? Or could it also be the fault of the federal government? Presumably the leader of a small nation has a wider latitude for action to them than the leader of a similarly sized region which is contained in a larger country.
  - vkou 7y ago
    Both. BC dragged its feet on implementing a lockdown, the federal government had to be dragged kicking and screaming into closing its borders. Travelers from China weren't even quarantined throughout February, for instance. Anecdotally, I have heard that Chinese-Canadian communities took the issue seriously on their own, and started practicing social distancing in February... Which may well have helped. It's looking better than Ontario and Quebec, but it could have looked even better, had it acted sooner.
    - deskamess 7y ago
      It was a Chinese Canadian family who reported to BC Health that a family member who went back to China had tested positive. The individual had visited two health clinics in BC with symptoms, and was dismissed, before going back to China at the end of the trip. I believe this was one of the first 3 cases reported in BC. This was commendable and very forward thinking of the family. Many times there is a stigma in Eastern countries about being the early carrier of disease etc.
- ska 7y ago
  I think that is being a bit harsh on BC - it is looking pretty good compared to basically all the rest of North America; not perfect, but acted sensibly for the most part.
  - cgh 7y ago
    Yes, but considering eg the shitshow down south or in Quebec, that is damning it with faint praise. The fact remains that BC has seven times the deaths of New Zealand. One thing BC has in its favour is a reasonably common-sense population that more or less understands the gravity of the situation, particularly the Chinese community. People have been good with social distancing and so forth. But BC Parks should have closed sooner, Bonnie Henry should not have been encouraging people to "continue to go to Whistler", and so forth.
    - ashtonkem 7y ago
      You do need to evaluate that 7x in the light of the exponential growth we’re seeing in other areas.
    - ska 7y ago
      I disagree. Globally, it's pretty solidly in the "did sensible things, had better results" column along with NZ. Certainly not perfect, of course.
Barrin92 7y ago
Part that stood out for me >Unlike the countries that declared "war on Covid-19", the government's message was that of a country coming together. It urged people to "Unite Against Covid-19". Ms Ardern has repeatedly called the country "our team of five million". The wonders of having a young woman in charge rather than a testosterone-laden septuagenarian. Being German I'm also glad Merkel is in charge over here and her measured response rather than banging on the war drums reassured me as well.

kolikotime 7y ago

New Zealand also is a relatively isolated warm island nation with far less international travel to it than literally the rest of the Western World. So please excuse me with all of the tribute to it for its performance.

renewiltord 7y ago
Interesting. Lets run a quick comparison between Louisiana and New Zealand. Temperature today: Auckland peaks at 19 C, New Orleans at 25 C Population: NZ 4.8 million, Lousiana 4.7 million Density: NZ 18 / sq. km, Lousiana 34 / sq. km COVID cases (deaths): NZ 1445 (13) , Lousiana 24523 (1328)
- Aaronstotle 7y ago
  Louisiana also had Mardi Gras, which brought in tons of people from around the country to New Orleans, likely spreading Covid
  - mdszy 7y ago
    Which should have obviously been canceled, clearly highlighting incredibly poor response.
    - ced 7y ago
      It was on February 25th. Most of North America didn't do anything until mid-March, no?
      - mdszy 7y ago
        That's part of the bad response.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
- rriepe 7y ago

notacoward 7y ago

41 years + 1 day ago, my mother and I returned to the US from New Zealand. Every time I see a story like this, I wonder if that was really such a great idea. Good for them. I'd be pleased and proud to have Jacinda Ardern leading my country.

cflewis 7y ago
I lived there for a couple years about a decade ago. I left because the job opportunities for highly-qualified software engineers in NZ was basically zero. The only real option presented for Kiwis was to move to Sydney. It is very frustrating to hear multinationals opening offices in Sydney and saying "New Zealand people can work there too, it's all the same" when it's not. American companies open Canadian offices all the time because the cultures are different. Australia and New Zealand have the same relationship: same language, different cultures. It grinds my gears to this day because I would love to return for good, but I can't/won't give up my career, and I don't really want to move to Sydney. I want to move to New Zealand.
- edsrzf 7y ago
  I live in Auckland and the tech scene has really been booming in the last year or two. Obviously it's no SF bay area, and there are now companies struggling in the current economic conditions, but it may be worth another look in, say, a year.
  - y-c-o-m-b 7y ago
    Is there still a shortage of qualified tech workers and do you know if they make exceptions for those that don't meet the required amount of points for immigration? I'm short by 5 points because I don't have a degree (but I have well over a decade of experience in software development). EDIT: N/M looks like I can get in easily if I'm offered a job by an NZ employer listed as an "absolute skill shortage", so I guess I answered my own question. I'm using this tool for anyone curious: https://www.immigration.govt.nz/new-zealand-visas/apply-for-a-visa/tools-and-information/tools/points-indicator-smc-28aug https://www.immigration.govt.nz/new-zealand-visas/apply-for-...

ravenstine 7y ago

I see nothing in this article that suggests that New Zealand was particularly scientific in their response in contrast with other countries. This idea comes from someone's viewpoint of NZ's relationship with the scientific community, but that doesn't really demonstrate that their leaders responded in line with whatever scientific evidence there is. This comes of as yet another "I f*ing love science" type news story.

notahacker 7y ago
Not sure they were massively more empathetic either. The reality is that because it's an isolated island whose countrymen aren't regularly jetting back and forth it had relatively few cases in mid March and found it completely practical to quarantine everybody who had been overseas for 14 days at that point. Fiji's doing pretty well apart from the tourist industry too, and I'm not sure their government is also outstandingly scientific or empathetic. Certainly, some countries have done much more counterproductive things than NZ and some countries would have had better capacity to respond if they listened to epidemiologists more. But for all the UK government has legitimately been criticised for being slow to respond and poor at communicating, it went into lockdown on exactly the same day as NZ. It just likely had at least two or three orders of magnitude more cases at the time.
- ghaff 7y ago
  I strongly suspect that by the time this is done we will have some handle of things that could have reasonably been done differently in different places without the full benefit of hindsight. And some of the policies that were clearly counterproductive. I also suspect we'll probably find that some things that people have very strong and strident opinions about don't strongly correlate to results across regions. And that the reasons why things were so different between a lot of country or state As and country or state Bs will either be unclear or be the result of factors that couldn't really be mitigated.
  - im3w1l 7y ago
    I think "correlates" already is the wrong way to look at this as it implies a kind linear model, but we know it's much more complicated than that. You can't look at a single policy in isolation, you have to look at it as part of a strategy. Then there is also flawed implementations of fundamentally sound ideas to take into account.

glofish 7y ago

A surviorship bias at its finest. There are so many aspects of this disease we don't understand, trumpeting various accomplishments on incomplete data helps no one. It is a small, isolated island nation, neither the measures taken nor the expected outcomes of same measures are representative for larger societies. If anything Germany is far better case on how to manage an outbreak than New Zealand.

Mikeb85 7y ago

The fact it's an isolated island with a small population and it's their summer no doubt helps too...

drocer88 7y ago
Most of the countries that ran balanced budgets performed well : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_government_budget https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_governmen...
robocat 7y ago
“Tourism is New Zealand's largest export industry in terms of foreign exchange earnings. It directly employs one in eight New Zealanders.“ NZ is highly connected, and it gets a significant number of tourists from China. Summer is the high season for tourism. So if anything, NZ should be hit harder than many less connected states/countries.
- Mikeb85 7y ago
  Still easier to seal the border when you're an island. And summer matters because most scientists think hot weather slows the virus' ability to spread.
  - robocat 7y ago
    Sure, but the border was sealed after 100s of thousands of tourists, and hundreds of infected cases arriving from overseas. This was before we had any ability to test for the virus. Returning NZers were asked to self-quarantine for two weeks, and I’m guessing the majority did. NZ has temperate weather - it is not a hot country: https://weatherspark.com/m/144837/3/Average-Weather-in-March-in-Christchurch-New-Zealand https://weatherspark.com/m/144837/3/Average-Weather-in-March... In March in Christchurch (approx 1/10th NZ population) the temperature would be called “cool”. I think you are rationalising.
nisse72 7y ago
Actually it's been autumn here for 2 months.

bioinformatics 7y ago

Did they rely on geography too?

jessaustin 7y ago

Small nations are easier to govern in reasonable and just fashion than large nations. Therefore, nations should be small rather than large.