4 ms·

I grew up in a country where there's no jury system in place. There, the judge(s) are all that matter in deciding the outcome of the case and as you can imagine

I grew up in a country where there's no jury system in place. There, the judge(s) are all that matter in deciding the outcome of the case and as you can imagine, a lot of corruption happens (it is easier to bribe 1-3 judges than to a dozen jury for example). I am curious (a serious question) what better system you have in mind to replace juries.

vidarh 6y ago
Norway uses a mixed system (it used to have juries for some cases; the very last jury decision after the law was changed was logically unsound - two questions, one of the four combinations was impossible; the juries returned that one) of panels of judges (from 1 to 7) depending on the type of case. For the most serious criminal cases the panel will have 2 professional legally trained judges and 5 "lay judges" - basically jurors of a sort, but unlike in a jury trial all of the judges (professionals and lay judges) deliberate together and vote together. In a 7 judge panel, at least 1 of the professional judges and at least 4 of the lay judges must vote guilty for a conviction. This feels to me like it gets most of the benefit of both a jury and of professional judges. It avoids a lot of the issue of whether or not the lay judges understand the jury instructions and the legal aspects they're asked to judge on, but also ensures the prosecutor does need to convince both the lay judges and the professional judges for a conviction.
- pwned1 6y ago
  We also have the tradition of jury nullification in the US where jurors are free to acquit if they feel as though the law itself is unjust. Professional jurors would no doubt shy away from that because their employment depends on the government. In addition, in the US, jurors don't make decisions on the law, just the facts.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - vidarh 6y ago
    In Norway jurors didn't make decisions on the law either, which is why the distinction between jurors and lay judges exists. It's kinda moot now as there aren't juries anymore, but both systems existed in parallel (for different types of cases and severity) It's not really that they are "free to acquit" either as much as that there is no mechanism for preventing it. The issue is controversial enough that the several circuits have made it clear courts can present jury instructions designed to minimize it and/or prevent the jury from being made aware of the ability. And this ability has also been extensively abused, e.g. for racist purposes. While it has also been used to attack unjust laws, I'm not convinced it is worth the risks.
- Amezarak 6y ago
  The possibility of contradictory decisions is a feature of juries, not a bug. Juries are able to make decisions metalegally, not just legally. They are one of the most important checks on the power of the legal system. In the US, if you do not want a jury trial, you are free (and encouraged) to do so and settle for a bench trial, where everything is decided by a judge. I think that gives you the best of both worlds as a defendant.
k__ 6y ago
I don't know, but we don't have juries in Germany and corruption isn't a problem either.
- jaywalk 6y ago
  How do you know that? Would a local reporter take up the story, knowing they could end up in front of that same corrupt judge? I'm not saying you're wrong, but here in the US we can be pretty certain that 12 random people are not corrupt. You just have to trust that judges aren't corrupt.
- pnw_hazor 6y ago
  I don't know how you can know that. In the US, some lawyers definitely work hard to remain on the good side of judges. I have dabbled in some areas of law that are 'bubbles' with specialized lawyers and no juries (family law, bankruptcy, landlord-tenant). It doesn't take much to disrupt them with conventional good lawyering because most people in those practices areas, judges included, are in a rut. Criminal law has some similar problems mostly at the low level. But it is usually the prosecutors and the defense attorneys colluding to quickly pass cases through the system. The last thing most judges, prosecutors, and defense attorneys want is a jury trial because then they would have to do their job.
  - k__ 6y ago
    I see. From the outside I had the impression successful defense attorneys would try to convince the jury by confusing them, which seems quite easy because the jury usually isn't educated in law.
    - pnw_hazor 6y ago
      In weak cases, lawyers from either side will try to confuse some of the issues. But the rules of evidence, criminal trial procedure rules, and the presiding judge can make this difficult. Also, even though good research about jury deliberation is limited because they are conducted in secret, I recall (from memory) that research shows juries are pretty good at detecting when someone is trying to deceive them. Further, in trials, the opposing party gets a say in the matter too. If one side says something deceptive or deliberately confusing, competent lawyers for the other side will point this out and attempt to correct the record, possibly turning the jury and the judge against the deceptive lawyer.

vidarh 6y ago

Norway uses a mixed system (it used to have juries for some cases; the very last jury decision after the law was changed was logically unsound - two questions, one of the four combinations was impossible; the juries returned that one) of panels of judges (from 1 to 7) depending on the type of case. For the most serious criminal cases the panel will have 2 professional legally trained judges and 5 "lay judges" - basically jurors of a sort, but unlike in a jury trial all of the judges (professionals and lay judges) deliberate together and vote together. In a 7 judge panel, at least 1 of the professional judges and at least 4 of the lay judges must vote guilty for a conviction. This feels to me like it gets most of the benefit of both a jury and of professional judges. It avoids a lot of the issue of whether or not the lay judges understand the jury instructions and the legal aspects they're asked to judge on, but also ensures the prosecutor does need to convince both the lay judges and the professional judges for a conviction.

pwned1 6y ago
We also have the tradition of jury nullification in the US where jurors are free to acquit if they feel as though the law itself is unjust. Professional jurors would no doubt shy away from that because their employment depends on the government. In addition, in the US, jurors don't make decisions on the law, just the facts.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- vidarh 6y ago
  In Norway jurors didn't make decisions on the law either, which is why the distinction between jurors and lay judges exists. It's kinda moot now as there aren't juries anymore, but both systems existed in parallel (for different types of cases and severity) It's not really that they are "free to acquit" either as much as that there is no mechanism for preventing it. The issue is controversial enough that the several circuits have made it clear courts can present jury instructions designed to minimize it and/or prevent the jury from being made aware of the ability. And this ability has also been extensively abused, e.g. for racist purposes. While it has also been used to attack unjust laws, I'm not convinced it is worth the risks.
Amezarak 6y ago
The possibility of contradictory decisions is a feature of juries, not a bug. Juries are able to make decisions metalegally, not just legally. They are one of the most important checks on the power of the legal system. In the US, if you do not want a jury trial, you are free (and encouraged) to do so and settle for a bench trial, where everything is decided by a judge. I think that gives you the best of both worlds as a defendant.

k__ 6y ago

I don't know, but we don't have juries in Germany and corruption isn't a problem either.

jaywalk 6y ago
How do you know that? Would a local reporter take up the story, knowing they could end up in front of that same corrupt judge? I'm not saying you're wrong, but here in the US we can be pretty certain that 12 random people are not corrupt. You just have to trust that judges aren't corrupt.
pnw_hazor 6y ago
I don't know how you can know that. In the US, some lawyers definitely work hard to remain on the good side of judges. I have dabbled in some areas of law that are 'bubbles' with specialized lawyers and no juries (family law, bankruptcy, landlord-tenant). It doesn't take much to disrupt them with conventional good lawyering because most people in those practices areas, judges included, are in a rut. Criminal law has some similar problems mostly at the low level. But it is usually the prosecutors and the defense attorneys colluding to quickly pass cases through the system. The last thing most judges, prosecutors, and defense attorneys want is a jury trial because then they would have to do their job.
- k__ 6y ago
  I see. From the outside I had the impression successful defense attorneys would try to convince the jury by confusing them, which seems quite easy because the jury usually isn't educated in law.
  - pnw_hazor 6y ago
    In weak cases, lawyers from either side will try to confuse some of the issues. But the rules of evidence, criminal trial procedure rules, and the presiding judge can make this difficult. Also, even though good research about jury deliberation is limited because they are conducted in secret, I recall (from memory) that research shows juries are pretty good at detecting when someone is trying to deceive them. Further, in trials, the opposing party gets a say in the matter too. If one side says something deceptive or deliberately confusing, competent lawyers for the other side will point this out and attempt to correct the record, possibly turning the jury and the judge against the deceptive lawyer.