4 ms·

I read one of Michael Pollen's books on food a few years back and the argument is something along the lines of: "Eat real food, not too much, mostly plants. Avo

by mbubb 6y ago

I read one of Michael Pollen's books on food a few years back and the argument is something along the lines of: "Eat real food, not too much, mostly plants. Avoid 'edible food-like substances'." To my mind that is an argument against something like "impossible burger" as a regular food. A breakfast of a super-processed, vegan, organic waffle, soy egg replacement and faux bacon is not much better for you than the pancake house originals. If at all. Sometimes it is a fun social thing to get fast food or something off a grease truck. More than once a week or so its not doing you very much good. There is variety in diet - I find the whole genetic diet idea intriguing. Though right now it is rife with pseudoscience. (I did geno-palate and found it thought provoking.) Different things work for different people - but I would bet Pollen's dicta are a pretty good base to start with and they experiment from. The cynical side of me things the BK campaign is probably bs. They will figure out another way to give us cancer, heart disease and diabetes. But it is very good to get us to think about what we all are putting in our mouths. Is it really real?

Waterluvian 6y ago
That quote sounds silly to me. What is real food? How much can you handle and manipulate a food until its not real anymore? Can you grind it up and make homemade burgers? Can you add a little bread crumbs to help it bind? Is bread a real food?
- thulecitizen 6y ago
  Real food is food that has a high nutritional value and is not a processed food.
  - knolax 6y ago
    So do white bread and white rice count? They're both processed and are mostly just carbs. White rice for example has to have Thiamin added, otherwise you would get Beriberi.
    - basch 6y ago
      If you are prioritizing intake, greens and seeds would probably rank above brown rice and bread, which would rank above white rice and bread. Instead of a "I can or can't eat this" the guidelines help you choose between options in front of you, or steer your cooking towards certain dishes.
  - KozmoNau7 6y ago
    The question that follows naturally is how do you define "processed food"? Different people have different definitions for this, so it's a rather vague term. To some people, it means anything you can't make in your own kitchen. However sausages are commonly cited as an example of processed food, and those are relatively simple to make at home, using the exact same ingredients as the commercially-produced sausages you buy in a store. Others consider it to mean anything made commercially, in a factory and not by hand, others would only include pre-packaged ready-to-heat box meals, others again have yet another definition, and may talk about "minimally processed foods" and "ultra-processed foods". Without context, we may not even be talking about the same thing. Unfortunately coming up with a concise definition of exactly what constitutes "processed food" is exceedingly hard, because all food preparation includes some amount of processing.
    - thulecitizen 6y ago
      Slow carbs instead fast carbs. Consume way less sugar. Eat way more veggies. Honestly if you can afford it, just start shopping at farmers markets and buy local seasonal veggies. > Without context, we may not even be talking about the same thing. I hear you. But maybe this is also because of the brainwashing of the American mind by advertising and corporate-funded biased studies. I've found that in the US it is hard not to buy 'processed food', because nearly everything is processed. I also believe processed foods are why average American life expectancy is so low.
      - KozmoNau7 6y ago
        > "Slow carbs instead fast carbs. Consume way less sugar. Eat way more veggies." Decent baseline advice, but it doesn't really have anything to do with "processed" vs "unprocessed" foods. It seems to me that a lot of people equate "processed" with "contains one or more things/processes which I consider unhealthy/undesirable", which makes it a subjective and biased term. What is your exact definition of "processed food"? If you're a raw fruitarian, you would consider anything not plucked directly from a tree to be processed. If you follow a paleo diet, you wouldn't consider butchered and dry-aged meat to be fine, but also consider bread to be processed. Perhaps you would find more people who would agree that ready-to-heat frozen meals are processed, based on their nutritional profile and heavy sugar/salt content, but they aren't really too different from something you could cook at home in your own kitchen. The best definition I've seen is "food that is already cooked ready to eat or requires minimal preparation", but that also covers a lot of things that would be considered healthy or at least not unhealthy, such as a pre-packaged salad. There is a lot of dietary misinformation out there, and the marketing rush to "all natural" and "avoid all processed" foods stems is also part of it. What's your definition of "processed"?
- matthewmacleod 6y ago
  I think the original quote is simpler: "Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants." The essay from the NYT is a good read: https://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/28/magazine/28nutritionism.t.html https://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/28/magazine/28nutritionism.t... Now, Pollan broadly speaking does get a bit more into what constitutes "food". But I'd argue in general: this is mostly a heuristic. It's not a clear set of rules, because such a thing is likely impossible. And advice of this sort is inherently kinda hand-wavy and (in Pollan's words) "flagrantly unscientific". That doesn't mean it's useless as a guide – everyone will have a bit of a different view on that. Bread, as something which has been consumed for tens of thousands of years, is recognisable as food. It's got perhaps three ingredients and is minimally processed. Cheese might be similar. Maybe it could be as simple as "something you can reasonably make in your own kitchen", or maybe it needs to be a bit more complex. The point is – it's too easy to get caught up in litigating the precise meaning of a vague phrase. The intent is clear, and the focus should be more on general diet rather than the needless semantics of "does bread stop being food when I make it into crumbs".
  - mbubb 6y ago
    Yes - you stated this better than I did. For me the idea of bread made with "Enriched bleached flour" is a good example of 'deceptive' food where you strip nutrients in one process and re-inject nutrients of questionable value. So bread is a great example of a food which can go from empty calorie food to dense nutrient.
  - Waterluvian 6y ago
    That's fair. Feels like a "you know it when you see it" kind of thing. I feel guarded against the inevitable health zealots who need a much simpler model to proselytize against, and therefore bin everything into good or bad. I can get on board with "Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants." I also really like, "try to have a variety of colours on your plate" (not sure where I heard this one from).
norswap 6y ago
I think the issue is that this is a good heuristic, but a shitty rule. You'll do well if you follow it, but you can find another set of rules (or heuristics) that you can follow, and you'll do well too despite completely violating that one.
wccrawford 6y ago
Most Vegans are not Vegans for the health benefits. They have other reasons. Likewise, I think most people going after "impossible burgers" aren't doing it because they think it's healthier. (I won't deny that some think that, though.) Some were just trying it out, some were thinking they're saving animals, and yes, a few thought it was healthier in some way. (And in some ways, they probably are, but not in others.) That said, I don't think "impossible burgers" are "food-like". They are food. Food-like, to me, would be things like gummy bears and Jello. Not only are they oddly manufactured, but they aren't part of a balanced diet. They are pure luxury. Other snacks like potato chips and Cheetos are in this category, too. If I weren't dieting because I'm overweight (and just a smidgen away from "medically obese", which is less than it sounds but still medically relevant) I'd eat that kind of food all the time. (Thus how I got into this weight situation.)
- mbubb 6y ago
  Interesting - hadn't considered that idea. I associate vegan diets with the desire for a more optimal diet (thus healthier). The point was not really one criticizing vegans. I think it is very possible today to be plant based and have a rich and health diet. What I was pointing out is that I've noticed a slippery debate tactic where a proponent of one diet will put forth nutrient rich food on their side and "Big Mac" quality food on the opponent's side.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
ruminasean 6y ago
30 year vegetarian here, not vegan, but I definitely look askance at all the massively processed fake meats. I'll happily eat seitan, but I make my own out of maybe 6 ingredients. I don't know too many vegetarians who eat them with any regularity...to me, they're more to transition meat-eaters to vegetarianism than anything else. Or maybe something for me to bring to a BBQ so I can not stand out like a sore thumb AGAIN.
- mbubb 6y ago
  Roast mushrooms, elephant garlic, peppers and eggplant planks are essential at any BBQ! And I say that as a meat eater... Years ago in NYC Chinatown I went to a restaurant called "Vegetarian Paradise" with all sorts of fake meat dishes. It was fun at the time but not particularly good. One notable exception which I have had in other restaurants is mock duck breast with mushrooms layered in sheets of seitan. I've had nice versions of that but yes I'd agree on your assessment.
josefresco 6y ago
"A breakfast of a super-processed, vegan, organic waffle, soy egg replacement and faux bacon is not much better for you than the pancake house originals" Waffle, egg and bacon vs. plant and vegan based alternatives. Sure about that? Do you have a citation?

by mbubb 6y ago

Waterluvian 6y ago

That quote sounds silly to me. What is real food? How much can you handle and manipulate a food until its not real anymore? Can you grind it up and make homemade burgers? Can you add a little bread crumbs to help it bind? Is bread a real food?

thulecitizen 6y ago
Real food is food that has a high nutritional value and is not a processed food.
- knolax 6y ago
  So do white bread and white rice count? They're both processed and are mostly just carbs. White rice for example has to have Thiamin added, otherwise you would get Beriberi.
  - basch 6y ago
    If you are prioritizing intake, greens and seeds would probably rank above brown rice and bread, which would rank above white rice and bread. Instead of a "I can or can't eat this" the guidelines help you choose between options in front of you, or steer your cooking towards certain dishes.
- KozmoNau7 6y ago
  The question that follows naturally is how do you define "processed food"? Different people have different definitions for this, so it's a rather vague term. To some people, it means anything you can't make in your own kitchen. However sausages are commonly cited as an example of processed food, and those are relatively simple to make at home, using the exact same ingredients as the commercially-produced sausages you buy in a store. Others consider it to mean anything made commercially, in a factory and not by hand, others would only include pre-packaged ready-to-heat box meals, others again have yet another definition, and may talk about "minimally processed foods" and "ultra-processed foods". Without context, we may not even be talking about the same thing. Unfortunately coming up with a concise definition of exactly what constitutes "processed food" is exceedingly hard, because all food preparation includes some amount of processing.
  - thulecitizen 6y ago
    Slow carbs instead fast carbs. Consume way less sugar. Eat way more veggies. Honestly if you can afford it, just start shopping at farmers markets and buy local seasonal veggies. > Without context, we may not even be talking about the same thing. I hear you. But maybe this is also because of the brainwashing of the American mind by advertising and corporate-funded biased studies. I've found that in the US it is hard not to buy 'processed food', because nearly everything is processed. I also believe processed foods are why average American life expectancy is so low.
    - KozmoNau7 6y ago
      > "Slow carbs instead fast carbs. Consume way less sugar. Eat way more veggies." Decent baseline advice, but it doesn't really have anything to do with "processed" vs "unprocessed" foods. It seems to me that a lot of people equate "processed" with "contains one or more things/processes which I consider unhealthy/undesirable", which makes it a subjective and biased term. What is your exact definition of "processed food"? If you're a raw fruitarian, you would consider anything not plucked directly from a tree to be processed. If you follow a paleo diet, you wouldn't consider butchered and dry-aged meat to be fine, but also consider bread to be processed. Perhaps you would find more people who would agree that ready-to-heat frozen meals are processed, based on their nutritional profile and heavy sugar/salt content, but they aren't really too different from something you could cook at home in your own kitchen. The best definition I've seen is "food that is already cooked ready to eat or requires minimal preparation", but that also covers a lot of things that would be considered healthy or at least not unhealthy, such as a pre-packaged salad. There is a lot of dietary misinformation out there, and the marketing rush to "all natural" and "avoid all processed" foods stems is also part of it. What's your definition of "processed"?
matthewmacleod 6y ago
I think the original quote is simpler: "Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants." The essay from the NYT is a good read: https://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/28/magazine/28nutritionism.t.html https://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/28/magazine/28nutritionism.t... Now, Pollan broadly speaking does get a bit more into what constitutes "food". But I'd argue in general: this is mostly a heuristic. It's not a clear set of rules, because such a thing is likely impossible. And advice of this sort is inherently kinda hand-wavy and (in Pollan's words) "flagrantly unscientific". That doesn't mean it's useless as a guide – everyone will have a bit of a different view on that. Bread, as something which has been consumed for tens of thousands of years, is recognisable as food. It's got perhaps three ingredients and is minimally processed. Cheese might be similar. Maybe it could be as simple as "something you can reasonably make in your own kitchen", or maybe it needs to be a bit more complex. The point is – it's too easy to get caught up in litigating the precise meaning of a vague phrase. The intent is clear, and the focus should be more on general diet rather than the needless semantics of "does bread stop being food when I make it into crumbs".
- mbubb 6y ago
  Yes - you stated this better than I did. For me the idea of bread made with "Enriched bleached flour" is a good example of 'deceptive' food where you strip nutrients in one process and re-inject nutrients of questionable value. So bread is a great example of a food which can go from empty calorie food to dense nutrient.
- Waterluvian 6y ago
  That's fair. Feels like a "you know it when you see it" kind of thing. I feel guarded against the inevitable health zealots who need a much simpler model to proselytize against, and therefore bin everything into good or bad. I can get on board with "Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants." I also really like, "try to have a variety of colours on your plate" (not sure where I heard this one from).

norswap 6y ago

I think the issue is that this is a good heuristic, but a shitty rule. You'll do well if you follow it, but you can find another set of rules (or heuristics) that you can follow, and you'll do well too despite completely violating that one.

wccrawford 6y ago

Most Vegans are not Vegans for the health benefits. They have other reasons. Likewise, I think most people going after "impossible burgers" aren't doing it because they think it's healthier. (I won't deny that some think that, though.) Some were just trying it out, some were thinking they're saving animals, and yes, a few thought it was healthier in some way. (And in some ways, they probably are, but not in others.) That said, I don't think "impossible burgers" are "food-like". They are food. Food-like, to me, would be things like gummy bears and Jello. Not only are they oddly manufactured, but they aren't part of a balanced diet. They are pure luxury. Other snacks like potato chips and Cheetos are in this category, too. If I weren't dieting because I'm overweight (and just a smidgen away from "medically obese", which is less than it sounds but still medically relevant) I'd eat that kind of food all the time. (Thus how I got into this weight situation.)

mbubb 6y ago
Interesting - hadn't considered that idea. I associate vegan diets with the desire for a more optimal diet (thus healthier). The point was not really one criticizing vegans. I think it is very possible today to be plant based and have a rich and health diet. What I was pointing out is that I've noticed a slippery debate tactic where a proponent of one diet will put forth nutrient rich food on their side and "Big Mac" quality food on the opponent's side.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

ruminasean 6y ago

30 year vegetarian here, not vegan, but I definitely look askance at all the massively processed fake meats. I'll happily eat seitan, but I make my own out of maybe 6 ingredients. I don't know too many vegetarians who eat them with any regularity...to me, they're more to transition meat-eaters to vegetarianism than anything else. Or maybe something for me to bring to a BBQ so I can not stand out like a sore thumb AGAIN.

mbubb 6y ago
Roast mushrooms, elephant garlic, peppers and eggplant planks are essential at any BBQ! And I say that as a meat eater... Years ago in NYC Chinatown I went to a restaurant called "Vegetarian Paradise" with all sorts of fake meat dishes. It was fun at the time but not particularly good. One notable exception which I have had in other restaurants is mock duck breast with mushrooms layered in sheets of seitan. I've had nice versions of that but yes I'd agree on your assessment.

josefresco 6y ago

"A breakfast of a super-processed, vegan, organic waffle, soy egg replacement and faux bacon is not much better for you than the pancake house originals" Waffle, egg and bacon vs. plant and vegan based alternatives. Sure about that? Do you have a citation?