5 ms·

I had to look up NeWS because I was bewildered at how Sun was writing PostScript by hand to create a whole GUI. Wikipedia has a nice summary comparing it to Dis

I had to look up NeWS because I was bewildered at how Sun was writing PostScript by hand to create a whole GUI. Wikipedia has a nice summary comparing it to Display PostScript used in the NeXT: "Sun Microsystems took another approach, creating NeWS. Instead of DPS's concept of allowing PS to interact with C programs, NeWS instead extended PS into a language suitable for running the entire GUI of a computer. Sun added a number of new commands for timers, mouse control, interrupts and other systems needed for interactivity, and added data structures and language elements to allow it to be completely object oriented internally. A complete GUI, three in fact, were written in NeWS and provided for a time on their workstations. However, the ongoing efforts to standardize the X11 system led to its introduction and widespread use on Sun systems, and NeWS never became widely used." I miss Sun. They were fun.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
arethuza 7y ago
I would argue that the best NeWS interface toolkit wasn't even built by Sun - HyperNeWS|HyperLook: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20182294 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20182294 Edit: Writing PostScript by hand was actually rather good fun - it's actually quite a nice language.
- rbanffy 7y ago
  > Edit: Writing PostScript by hand was actually rather good fun - it's actually quite a nice language. Part of the fun was that the most powerful computer in the office, for quite some time, was in the laser printer.
  - arethuza 7y ago
    When I did a computer vision course during the final years of my CS degree ('87/'88) we actually did the development on HLH Orion minis but could only view stuff by printing it out! Edit: We did get a demo of 2D Fourier analysis stuff on a Sun - which, of course, we thought was amazingly cool.
  - jacobush 7y ago
    Ah, there was some C64 software which used the CPU (same as in the C64) in the diskette drive for something. :)
    - rbanffy 7y ago
      How many 1541a could you daisy chain to a C64? If sending problem data and getting results is faster than doing the calculations on the C64 itself, we can have some net gains. I don't think Bitcoin mining is viable, but rendering fractals may be... I remember one PostScript printer (AMD 29K-based) that rendered a Mandelbrot set much faster than my modest Mac LC 2 (or 3?)...
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- DonHopkins 7y ago
  Here's a paper I wrote in 1989 about The Shape of PSIBER Space: PostScript Interactive Bug Eradication Routines: a visual programming and debugging interface for NeWS PostScript https://medium.com/@donhopkins/the-shape-of-psiber-space-october-1989-19e2dfa4d91e https://medium.com/@donhopkins/the-shape-of-psiber-space-oct...
bitwize 7y ago
You may know that we have a modern X replacement called Wayland, but you might also be pleased to know that we have a modern NeWS replacement too. It's called Electron.
- linksnapzz 7y ago
  I wonder how many full SunOS+NeWS installs you can fit in the memory footprint of Electron running a pizza app.
  - bitwize 7y ago
    It takes a lot of RAM to make a UI this ｍｏｄｅｒｎ
m463 7y ago
I think if sun had had an open license like X11, NeWS would have been (more) successful. Most people who understood it really liked it. I believe it might also have been more efficient for networked graphics than X.
- tyingq 7y ago
  I tried it in the 90's, at a company that would have been a potential customer. It didn't work on the Linux boxes or the Windows boxes that had a commercial X server. We dropped it almost immediately, because Sun's solution was "buy SparcStations". Which was crazy expensive at the time. So the network was NOT the computer. McNealy was a smart, but confused duck.
  - DonHopkins 7y ago
    McNealy is batshit crazy. He's a foaming-at-the-mouth Libertarian Trump supporter who hosts $50,000-per-plate Trump Reelection Campaign fundraising parties at his mansion, he praises Trump for his "spectacular job" handling the Coronivirus crisis, which he doesn't think is a big deal, because he's anti-self-isolation and a menace to society, who thinks "freedom" means the country should open back up and people should go out and congregate in crowds as soon as possible. It's embarrassing to have worked for him. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/17/trump-silicon-valley-fundraiser-at-scott-mcnealys-home.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/17/trump-silicon-valley-fundrai... >Trump held fundraiser at former Sun CEO Scott McNealy’s Silicon Valley house on Tuesday. >Protesters found out and lined the road, including raising a “baby Trump” balloon. >President Trump held a campaign fundraiser at the home of Sun Microsystems co-founder Scott McNealy Tuesday, marking Trump’s first fundraiser in the Bay area since being elected president. A giant inflatable baby Trump was not far behind. >The details of the $1,000 to $50,000-per-plate event were held quite tightly by local GOP officials, as attendees were reportedly asked to arrive at a remote location before being shuttled to McNealy’s mansion. >McNealy was also known for being strongly against government regulation, poo-pooing worries about consumer privacy by saying, "You have zero privacy, get over it." https://www.businessinsider.com/scott-mcnealy-praises-trumps-handling-of-coronavirus-crisis-2020-3?international=true&r=US&IR=T https://www.businessinsider.com/scott-mcnealy-praises-trumps... >Former Sun Micro CEO Scott McNealy, known for his provocative quotes, says Trump is doing a 'spectacular job' amid the coronavirus crisis. That's not how many tech experts see it. >Scott McNealy, former CEO of Sun Microsystems who was famous for his provocative statements, praised President Trump's handling of the coronavirus crisis saying, "He's doing a spectacular job." >McNealy also said he is glad a business leader is in charge, arguing that, "The worst CEO is 1,000 times better than the best politician." >McNealy also expressed concerns about the duration of the shelter-in-place policy in California where he lives, arguing it could lead to the erosion of individual rights. >McNealy was quickly rebuked by veteran tech experts. "I don't want politicians running my companies," Stanford professor Paul Saffo told Business Insider. "And I also don't want businessmen in political offices. They're two entirely different kinds of skills. That has been demonstrated again and again and again." https://twitter.com/scottmcnealy/status/1246457691402207232 https://twitter.com/scottmcnealy/status/1246457691402207232 >Scott McNealy @scottmcnealy >What’s more dangerous? Overwhelming our health care system or our entire economy? Can our healthcare system survive an economic disaster? https://twitter.com/scottmcnealy/status/1246457205559193601 https://twitter.com/scottmcnealy/status/1246457205559193601 >Scott McNealy @scottmcnealy >Swim at your own risk. Drive at your own risk. Play hockey at your own risk. Skateboard at 65 at your own risk. Have someone hold your beer at your own risk. Smoke weed and drink while obese at your own risk. Freedom. >xardox @xardox Replying to @scottmcnealy >@BillGates is such a better, smarter, more humanitarian, well respected man than you are, Scott. For one thing, he kicked your ass and wiped the floor with it, & handed it to you on a platter, LOSER. For another thing, he's not a delusional MENACE TO SOCIETY like you are. Idiot. >James Gosling @errcraft Replying to @scottmcnealy >But if you smoke weed or drink, and then get behind the wheel of your car, you put everyone at risk. Some freedoms have to be curtailed to preserve other freedoms. Freedom is a balancing act, and that balance is one of the core reasons that We The People have a government.
th0ma5 7y ago
I immediately thought of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Display_PostScript https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Display_PostScript
- monocasa 7y ago
  They mention that > Instead of DPS's concept of allowing PS to interact with C programs...
mapgrep 7y ago
I've read a couple of books about Sun (maybe I should say, "both books about Sun") and my memory is that NeWS was considered significantly more elegant than X11 by many people who understood the problem space, and Sun was set on trying to make it an open standard as they did for NFS. However, Sun (and again this is just my memory) had left many in the industry feeling burned on its last big standards push, I believe this was around NFS, and I don't recall the details of why. But there was so much bad blood that NeWS had an uphill battle. And I recall clearly (from these books) that there was a conscious effort when Java came along to help it avoid the fate of NeWS. Also as Wikipedia notes the actual Sun implementation of NeWS carried a licensing fee; mind you, they had a fairly open posture toward licensing the source but they did charge, whereas MIT gave away X11 code. Anyway maybe someone can tell me how wrong I am here!
- DonHopkins 7y ago
  But you're right! ;) Here's the story about the fight to make NeWS free, and what finally happened (which sucked). https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22457490 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22457490 Notice how NeWS and NFS are spelled almost the same (except for that pesky little "e") -- that was on purpose to draw a parallel between NFS and NeWS (whose original name was SunDew, which I always thought they should have stuck with). Unfortunately that got a lot of bad attention and drew a lot of fire from other companies like DEC who didn't want to see Sun pull another NFS. Here's "The NeWS Book"! It was written during the transition from NeWS 1.1 to X11/NeWS, so it has a chapter about porting NeWS to other platforms (like the Parallax live video graphics card, and SGI's 4Sight, the port of NeWS to the SGI Iris, as well as the port of NeWS to OS/2. It also has a forward-looking chapter on X11/NeWS architecture (X11/NeWS Design Overview). http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/sun/NeWS/The_NeWS_Book_1989.pdf http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/sun/NeWS/The_NeWS_Boo...
  - mapgrep 7y ago
    Another book for my collection, wonderful! I think SunDew is definitely the better name ... unless your goal is to make people forget the technology came from Sun. Of course, that didn’t happen anyway, so maybe they should have just stuck with SunDew!
jjav 7y ago
> I miss Sun. They were fun. I miss Sun so much. It was the glory days of Silicon Valley. I wish there was an employer as awesome as Sun around these days.
- DonHopkins 7y ago
  I had some old Sun brochures that my housemate scanned and uploaded to the Internet Archive: https://twitter.com/miuott/status/1238181870816366592 https://twitter.com/miuott/status/1238181870816366592 miunau Otter @miuott some nice shots on this Sun 4/200 series brochure I scanned and put up on archive: https://archive.org/details/sun4200seriesbrochure https://archive.org/details/sun4200seriesbrochure https://twitter.com/xardox/status/1238237305799876610 https://twitter.com/xardox/status/1238237305799876610 xardox @xardox Replying to @miuott That's the old Sun 4/200 brochure I saved, that we just scanned and uploaded it to http://archive.org http://archive.org! Here's my favorite one, the runway shot (click the image to see it in its full glory and splendor -- twitter cropped the best part!): https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ES8aJuFX0AMXMsL?format=png&name=900x900 https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ES8aJuFX0AMXMsL?format=png&name=... Sun had nice offices back in those days. Except for the open seating on the airport runway. And that was before the invention of noise cancelation headphones.
- fatnoah 7y ago
  >I miss Sun so much. I managed to come full circle. I interned at Sun in the mid-90s and now work for Facebook. It was a surreal experience to walk on the same, yet totally different campus over 25 years later. Plus, there's this: https://www.businessinsider.com/why-suns-logo-is-on-the-back-of-facebooks-sign-2014-12 https://www.businessinsider.com/why-suns-logo-is-on-the-back...

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

arethuza 7y ago

I would argue that the best NeWS interface toolkit wasn't even built by Sun - HyperNeWS|HyperLook: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20182294 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20182294 Edit: Writing PostScript by hand was actually rather good fun - it's actually quite a nice language.

rbanffy 7y ago
> Edit: Writing PostScript by hand was actually rather good fun - it's actually quite a nice language. Part of the fun was that the most powerful computer in the office, for quite some time, was in the laser printer.
- arethuza 7y ago
  When I did a computer vision course during the final years of my CS degree ('87/'88) we actually did the development on HLH Orion minis but could only view stuff by printing it out! Edit: We did get a demo of 2D Fourier analysis stuff on a Sun - which, of course, we thought was amazingly cool.
- jacobush 7y ago
  Ah, there was some C64 software which used the CPU (same as in the C64) in the diskette drive for something. :)
  - rbanffy 7y ago
    How many 1541a could you daisy chain to a C64? If sending problem data and getting results is faster than doing the calculations on the C64 itself, we can have some net gains. I don't think Bitcoin mining is viable, but rendering fractals may be... I remember one PostScript printer (AMD 29K-based) that rendered a Mandelbrot set much faster than my modest Mac LC 2 (or 3?)...
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
DonHopkins 7y ago
Here's a paper I wrote in 1989 about The Shape of PSIBER Space: PostScript Interactive Bug Eradication Routines: a visual programming and debugging interface for NeWS PostScript https://medium.com/@donhopkins/the-shape-of-psiber-space-october-1989-19e2dfa4d91e https://medium.com/@donhopkins/the-shape-of-psiber-space-oct...

bitwize 7y ago

You may know that we have a modern X replacement called Wayland, but you might also be pleased to know that we have a modern NeWS replacement too. It's called Electron.

linksnapzz 7y ago
I wonder how many full SunOS+NeWS installs you can fit in the memory footprint of Electron running a pizza app.
- bitwize 7y ago
  It takes a lot of RAM to make a UI this ｍｏｄｅｒｎ

m463 7y ago

I think if sun had had an open license like X11, NeWS would have been (more) successful. Most people who understood it really liked it. I believe it might also have been more efficient for networked graphics than X.

tyingq 7y ago
I tried it in the 90's, at a company that would have been a potential customer. It didn't work on the Linux boxes or the Windows boxes that had a commercial X server. We dropped it almost immediately, because Sun's solution was "buy SparcStations". Which was crazy expensive at the time. So the network was NOT the computer. McNealy was a smart, but confused duck.
- DonHopkins 7y ago
  McNealy is batshit crazy. He's a foaming-at-the-mouth Libertarian Trump supporter who hosts $50,000-per-plate Trump Reelection Campaign fundraising parties at his mansion, he praises Trump for his "spectacular job" handling the Coronivirus crisis, which he doesn't think is a big deal, because he's anti-self-isolation and a menace to society, who thinks "freedom" means the country should open back up and people should go out and congregate in crowds as soon as possible. It's embarrassing to have worked for him. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/17/trump-silicon-valley-fundraiser-at-scott-mcnealys-home.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/17/trump-silicon-valley-fundrai... >Trump held fundraiser at former Sun CEO Scott McNealy’s Silicon Valley house on Tuesday. >Protesters found out and lined the road, including raising a “baby Trump” balloon. >President Trump held a campaign fundraiser at the home of Sun Microsystems co-founder Scott McNealy Tuesday, marking Trump’s first fundraiser in the Bay area since being elected president. A giant inflatable baby Trump was not far behind. >The details of the $1,000 to $50,000-per-plate event were held quite tightly by local GOP officials, as attendees were reportedly asked to arrive at a remote location before being shuttled to McNealy’s mansion. >McNealy was also known for being strongly against government regulation, poo-pooing worries about consumer privacy by saying, "You have zero privacy, get over it." https://www.businessinsider.com/scott-mcnealy-praises-trumps-handling-of-coronavirus-crisis-2020-3?international=true&r=US&IR=T https://www.businessinsider.com/scott-mcnealy-praises-trumps... >Former Sun Micro CEO Scott McNealy, known for his provocative quotes, says Trump is doing a 'spectacular job' amid the coronavirus crisis. That's not how many tech experts see it. >Scott McNealy, former CEO of Sun Microsystems who was famous for his provocative statements, praised President Trump's handling of the coronavirus crisis saying, "He's doing a spectacular job." >McNealy also said he is glad a business leader is in charge, arguing that, "The worst CEO is 1,000 times better than the best politician." >McNealy also expressed concerns about the duration of the shelter-in-place policy in California where he lives, arguing it could lead to the erosion of individual rights. >McNealy was quickly rebuked by veteran tech experts. "I don't want politicians running my companies," Stanford professor Paul Saffo told Business Insider. "And I also don't want businessmen in political offices. They're two entirely different kinds of skills. That has been demonstrated again and again and again." https://twitter.com/scottmcnealy/status/1246457691402207232 https://twitter.com/scottmcnealy/status/1246457691402207232 >Scott McNealy @scottmcnealy >What’s more dangerous? Overwhelming our health care system or our entire economy? Can our healthcare system survive an economic disaster? https://twitter.com/scottmcnealy/status/1246457205559193601 https://twitter.com/scottmcnealy/status/1246457205559193601 >Scott McNealy @scottmcnealy >Swim at your own risk. Drive at your own risk. Play hockey at your own risk. Skateboard at 65 at your own risk. Have someone hold your beer at your own risk. Smoke weed and drink while obese at your own risk. Freedom. >xardox @xardox Replying to @scottmcnealy >@BillGates is such a better, smarter, more humanitarian, well respected man than you are, Scott. For one thing, he kicked your ass and wiped the floor with it, & handed it to you on a platter, LOSER. For another thing, he's not a delusional MENACE TO SOCIETY like you are. Idiot. >James Gosling @errcraft Replying to @scottmcnealy >But if you smoke weed or drink, and then get behind the wheel of your car, you put everyone at risk. Some freedoms have to be curtailed to preserve other freedoms. Freedom is a balancing act, and that balance is one of the core reasons that We The People have a government.

th0ma5 7y ago

I immediately thought of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Display_PostScript https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Display_PostScript

monocasa 7y ago
They mention that > Instead of DPS's concept of allowing PS to interact with C programs...

mapgrep 7y ago

I've read a couple of books about Sun (maybe I should say, "both books about Sun") and my memory is that NeWS was considered significantly more elegant than X11 by many people who understood the problem space, and Sun was set on trying to make it an open standard as they did for NFS. However, Sun (and again this is just my memory) had left many in the industry feeling burned on its last big standards push, I believe this was around NFS, and I don't recall the details of why. But there was so much bad blood that NeWS had an uphill battle. And I recall clearly (from these books) that there was a conscious effort when Java came along to help it avoid the fate of NeWS. Also as Wikipedia notes the actual Sun implementation of NeWS carried a licensing fee; mind you, they had a fairly open posture toward licensing the source but they did charge, whereas MIT gave away X11 code. Anyway maybe someone can tell me how wrong I am here!

DonHopkins 7y ago
But you're right! ;) Here's the story about the fight to make NeWS free, and what finally happened (which sucked). https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22457490 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22457490 Notice how NeWS and NFS are spelled almost the same (except for that pesky little "e") -- that was on purpose to draw a parallel between NFS and NeWS (whose original name was SunDew, which I always thought they should have stuck with). Unfortunately that got a lot of bad attention and drew a lot of fire from other companies like DEC who didn't want to see Sun pull another NFS. Here's "The NeWS Book"! It was written during the transition from NeWS 1.1 to X11/NeWS, so it has a chapter about porting NeWS to other platforms (like the Parallax live video graphics card, and SGI's 4Sight, the port of NeWS to the SGI Iris, as well as the port of NeWS to OS/2. It also has a forward-looking chapter on X11/NeWS architecture (X11/NeWS Design Overview). http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/sun/NeWS/The_NeWS_Book_1989.pdf http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/sun/NeWS/The_NeWS_Boo...
- mapgrep 7y ago
  Another book for my collection, wonderful! I think SunDew is definitely the better name ... unless your goal is to make people forget the technology came from Sun. Of course, that didn’t happen anyway, so maybe they should have just stuck with SunDew!

jjav 7y ago

> I miss Sun. They were fun. I miss Sun so much. It was the glory days of Silicon Valley. I wish there was an employer as awesome as Sun around these days.

DonHopkins 7y ago
I had some old Sun brochures that my housemate scanned and uploaded to the Internet Archive: https://twitter.com/miuott/status/1238181870816366592 https://twitter.com/miuott/status/1238181870816366592 miunau Otter @miuott some nice shots on this Sun 4/200 series brochure I scanned and put up on archive: https://archive.org/details/sun4200seriesbrochure https://archive.org/details/sun4200seriesbrochure https://twitter.com/xardox/status/1238237305799876610 https://twitter.com/xardox/status/1238237305799876610 xardox @xardox Replying to @miuott That's the old Sun 4/200 brochure I saved, that we just scanned and uploaded it to http://archive.org http://archive.org! Here's my favorite one, the runway shot (click the image to see it in its full glory and splendor -- twitter cropped the best part!): https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ES8aJuFX0AMXMsL?format=png&name=900x900 https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ES8aJuFX0AMXMsL?format=png&name=... Sun had nice offices back in those days. Except for the open seating on the airport runway. And that was before the invention of noise cancelation headphones.
fatnoah 7y ago
>I miss Sun so much. I managed to come full circle. I interned at Sun in the mid-90s and now work for Facebook. It was a surreal experience to walk on the same, yet totally different campus over 25 years later. Plus, there's this: https://www.businessinsider.com/why-suns-logo-is-on-the-back-of-facebooks-sign-2014-12 https://www.businessinsider.com/why-suns-logo-is-on-the-back...