5 ms·

> Shouldn't the ethics be on the government side in such cases? Everyone should aim to act ethically especially during a crisis. I think we are generally far

by brmgb 7y ago

> Shouldn't the ethics be on the government side in such cases? Everyone should aim to act ethically especially during a crisis. I think we are generally far too lenient with corporations regarding their behaviours. Both stockholders and executives should be held accountable. By always viewing corporations as faceless entities, abstract monsters lead only by profits, we give these people a free pass. I don't think we should.

TeMPOraL 7y ago
We're far too lenient with everyone. If, as a society, we were to suddenly start holding people to most basic ethical standards, half of the small businesses would have to close. I'm not saying this to defend corporations - just pointing out that the market discourages ethical behavior all across the board. If one can't see it, then one hasn't seen restaurants, fast food or grocery stores up close.
- salawat 7y ago
  Could you go into more detail on this? Lime specific examples? Not trying to be disingenuous; just apparently terribly unimaginative apparently. As far as I was aware the major driver of the absolute level of unethical behavior in the market tends to be your least ethical actor who lowers the bar for everyone. That I understand. Like Grocery stores that hire lots of part timers and only them, and limiting total hours to avoid paying benefits will tend to push out those that don't do that. Though I wasn't. at all under the impression that the problem encompassed as large a swath of businesses as you are asserting.
  - TeMPOraL 7y ago
    Most of what I know can be considered anecdotal; it's something I've seen myself, or heard about first- or second-hand. The amount of such stories, plus basic understanding of labor law history and dynamics of market forces, makes me conclude these stories are very much representative. Random examples I've seen and mentioned here in the past: - The franchised grocery store close to me would wash stale meat with detergent to stop it from smelling, then sell it as fresh. I only learned that because I was very friendly with the staff, and some of them started discretely warning me not to buy meat today. I understand it to be common practice. - Most of the small stores and cafes I know will not pay their employees for the time spent getting ready to man their station, cleaning up after work and closing down the place. Which means they get paid for 8 hours a day, but are expected to work 9. I think a related legal term is "donning and doffing". I learned that from being friends with people working in the service sector. - A very common theme that's especially important in the times of pandemic is that in low-end services jobs, like grocery store clerks, food preparers in restaurants, etc. sick leave does not exist in practice. It may on paper, but if you take it, you can kiss your pay - or sometimes even job - goodbye. Since people working there are on the low end of the wealth spectrum, it means they all just eat their painkillers and show up to work sick. - I've read some other horror stories about the back ends of restaurants. One I remember vividly is learning that your food may not be what it looks like. For instance, I've heard of places that do grilled chicken breasts by heating them up in the microwave and then dropping for a minute on a hot-dog bum iron, in order to give it the marks of grilling. - Don't get me started on e-commerce. Problems are brought up in every thread about Amazon or eBay (which I think is more often than weekly here). One spectacular failure is that of comments and rating systems. In my family circles I've had people working e-commerce; in each such place the boss would order their workers to create fake accounts and make fake orders (legitimately looking orders with self-pickup and payment on pickup, that never get sent or paid for), and then rate them positively. Meanwhile, if an actual customer leaves a negative comment, they'll get begged and bribed with discounts or free merchandise to take it down. As a result, the rating system is completely bogus. Notably, this is a problem created by the e-commerce platforms themselves, in the same way Uber made their ratings bullshit; if you're a seller and you drop below ~99% of customer satisfaction rate, you lose special privileges; go below ~97%, and you get suspended. Etc. etc. The common themes here are, 1) everyone does it because everyone else does it too, so those who don't can't compete, and 2) the players involved are too small for the legal system to go after them even if they break actual laws. I.e. market competition in the long tail.
    - crankylinuxuser 7y ago
      As anecdotes... I know a sole proprietorship locally that re-dates grocery goods when they expire so they can continue to resell until they look 'unappealing'. It's also common knowledge they do this. The health dept has been called multiple times, with no real punishment. I also worked at Starbucks for 5 years. I worked (made drinks, got foodstuffs prepped, and handed stuff to/from customers) while sick with the flu. I know I gave it to customers and fellow employees. I was threatened that I'd either be fired or "get a 4 hour shift for the week" if I dared call in. The store manager also demanded that shift managers tell employees who call in sick to do the work of managers and call for their replacements. I also worked at walmart. I was a 3rd shift stocker... The pallet jacks they had were in various states of disrepair. Many had sharpies written on them "BROKE". 1 malfunctioned and cut into my foot. I was later fired for 'reasons' that included on my paperwork "got injured and cost the company money"... Literally. I also worked at Subway... And their chicken is some of the weirdest stuff Ive ever seen (as in, chicken in name only). And recent DNA analysis with a NPR expose showed that their "chicken" was 50% chicken and 50% soy. If I were to do that, I'd be charged with fraud and stuff. But it's cool a big co can do this.. Its "just business". https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/03/01/517920680/dna-tests-find-subway-chicken-only-50-percent-meat-canadian-media-reports https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/03/01/517920680...
      - Chris2048 7y ago
        > on my paperwork "got injured and cost the company money" You got that in writing? Doesn't sound legal..
        crankylinuxuser 7y ago
        Oh yeah, I had it in writing. I also had $500 to my name and a car that was falling apart. And it was against Walmart. I talked to 2 attorneys. They said effectively that even though I had a very good case, they were too big for a probono small attorney to deal with. It's only illegal if you can enforce it. And that costs money. Which I didn't have.
  - kavalg 7y ago
    I think the general direction here is that if unethical behavior leads to positive stimuli and there aren't some negative stimuli as a counterweight you simply end up with general demoralization of society and even more unethical behavior. Examples of positive stimuli that may drive unethical behavior: - short term profit - gaining market position - getting to next VC round / not getting fired Examples of possible negative stimuli to be used as a counterweight: - quick and effective legal consequences/process for - same rules for everyone (no matter corp size, political connections, race etc) - social rejection (also from future business partners) IMO a very big problem is the continuing devaluation of "truth" and the increased accent on sensation/emotions that I see in the media and corporate/social circles. Just my two cents.
Mirioron 7y ago
If you start holding them accountable for questionable ethics then you can expect to be lied to even more by them. They would constantly put out even more PR about how they are perfect angels and how their competitors are the worst people who have ever lived. Owning a newspaper suddenly becomes good for business.

by brmgb 7y ago

TeMPOraL 7y ago

We're far too lenient with everyone. If, as a society, we were to suddenly start holding people to most basic ethical standards, half of the small businesses would have to close. I'm not saying this to defend corporations - just pointing out that the market discourages ethical behavior all across the board. If one can't see it, then one hasn't seen restaurants, fast food or grocery stores up close.

salawat 7y ago
Could you go into more detail on this? Lime specific examples? Not trying to be disingenuous; just apparently terribly unimaginative apparently. As far as I was aware the major driver of the absolute level of unethical behavior in the market tends to be your least ethical actor who lowers the bar for everyone. That I understand. Like Grocery stores that hire lots of part timers and only them, and limiting total hours to avoid paying benefits will tend to push out those that don't do that. Though I wasn't. at all under the impression that the problem encompassed as large a swath of businesses as you are asserting.
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  Most of what I know can be considered anecdotal; it's something I've seen myself, or heard about first- or second-hand. The amount of such stories, plus basic understanding of labor law history and dynamics of market forces, makes me conclude these stories are very much representative. Random examples I've seen and mentioned here in the past: - The franchised grocery store close to me would wash stale meat with detergent to stop it from smelling, then sell it as fresh. I only learned that because I was very friendly with the staff, and some of them started discretely warning me not to buy meat today. I understand it to be common practice. - Most of the small stores and cafes I know will not pay their employees for the time spent getting ready to man their station, cleaning up after work and closing down the place. Which means they get paid for 8 hours a day, but are expected to work 9. I think a related legal term is "donning and doffing". I learned that from being friends with people working in the service sector. - A very common theme that's especially important in the times of pandemic is that in low-end services jobs, like grocery store clerks, food preparers in restaurants, etc. sick leave does not exist in practice. It may on paper, but if you take it, you can kiss your pay - or sometimes even job - goodbye. Since people working there are on the low end of the wealth spectrum, it means they all just eat their painkillers and show up to work sick. - I've read some other horror stories about the back ends of restaurants. One I remember vividly is learning that your food may not be what it looks like. For instance, I've heard of places that do grilled chicken breasts by heating them up in the microwave and then dropping for a minute on a hot-dog bum iron, in order to give it the marks of grilling. - Don't get me started on e-commerce. Problems are brought up in every thread about Amazon or eBay (which I think is more often than weekly here). One spectacular failure is that of comments and rating systems. In my family circles I've had people working e-commerce; in each such place the boss would order their workers to create fake accounts and make fake orders (legitimately looking orders with self-pickup and payment on pickup, that never get sent or paid for), and then rate them positively. Meanwhile, if an actual customer leaves a negative comment, they'll get begged and bribed with discounts or free merchandise to take it down. As a result, the rating system is completely bogus. Notably, this is a problem created by the e-commerce platforms themselves, in the same way Uber made their ratings bullshit; if you're a seller and you drop below ~99% of customer satisfaction rate, you lose special privileges; go below ~97%, and you get suspended. Etc. etc. The common themes here are, 1) everyone does it because everyone else does it too, so those who don't can't compete, and 2) the players involved are too small for the legal system to go after them even if they break actual laws. I.e. market competition in the long tail.
  - crankylinuxuser 7y ago
    As anecdotes... I know a sole proprietorship locally that re-dates grocery goods when they expire so they can continue to resell until they look 'unappealing'. It's also common knowledge they do this. The health dept has been called multiple times, with no real punishment. I also worked at Starbucks for 5 years. I worked (made drinks, got foodstuffs prepped, and handed stuff to/from customers) while sick with the flu. I know I gave it to customers and fellow employees. I was threatened that I'd either be fired or "get a 4 hour shift for the week" if I dared call in. The store manager also demanded that shift managers tell employees who call in sick to do the work of managers and call for their replacements. I also worked at walmart. I was a 3rd shift stocker... The pallet jacks they had were in various states of disrepair. Many had sharpies written on them "BROKE". 1 malfunctioned and cut into my foot. I was later fired for 'reasons' that included on my paperwork "got injured and cost the company money"... Literally. I also worked at Subway... And their chicken is some of the weirdest stuff Ive ever seen (as in, chicken in name only). And recent DNA analysis with a NPR expose showed that their "chicken" was 50% chicken and 50% soy. If I were to do that, I'd be charged with fraud and stuff. But it's cool a big co can do this.. Its "just business". https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/03/01/517920680/dna-tests-find-subway-chicken-only-50-percent-meat-canadian-media-reports https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/03/01/517920680...
    - Chris2048 7y ago
      > on my paperwork "got injured and cost the company money" You got that in writing? Doesn't sound legal..
      - crankylinuxuser 7y ago
        Oh yeah, I had it in writing. I also had $500 to my name and a car that was falling apart. And it was against Walmart. I talked to 2 attorneys. They said effectively that even though I had a very good case, they were too big for a probono small attorney to deal with. It's only illegal if you can enforce it. And that costs money. Which I didn't have.
- kavalg 7y ago
  I think the general direction here is that if unethical behavior leads to positive stimuli and there aren't some negative stimuli as a counterweight you simply end up with general demoralization of society and even more unethical behavior. Examples of positive stimuli that may drive unethical behavior: - short term profit - gaining market position - getting to next VC round / not getting fired Examples of possible negative stimuli to be used as a counterweight: - quick and effective legal consequences/process for - same rules for everyone (no matter corp size, political connections, race etc) - social rejection (also from future business partners) IMO a very big problem is the continuing devaluation of "truth" and the increased accent on sensation/emotions that I see in the media and corporate/social circles. Just my two cents.

Mirioron 7y ago

If you start holding them accountable for questionable ethics then you can expect to be lied to even more by them. They would constantly put out even more PR about how they are perfect angels and how their competitors are the worst people who have ever lived. Owning a newspaper suddenly becomes good for business.