4 ms·

While I am not in any way approving such unethical behavior, I think he probably meant that you just can't expect this from most of the CEOs. At least the marke

by kavalg 7y ago

While I am not in any way approving such unethical behavior, I think he probably meant that you just can't expect this from most of the CEOs. At least the market does not incentivize such behavior in the short term (I means before you company goes bust :)). Shouldn't the ethics be on the government side in such cases?

brmgb 7y ago
> Shouldn't the ethics be on the government side in such cases? Everyone should aim to act ethically especially during a crisis. I think we are generally far too lenient with corporations regarding their behaviours. Both stockholders and executives should be held accountable. By always viewing corporations as faceless entities, abstract monsters lead only by profits, we give these people a free pass. I don't think we should.
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  We're far too lenient with everyone. If, as a society, we were to suddenly start holding people to most basic ethical standards, half of the small businesses would have to close. I'm not saying this to defend corporations - just pointing out that the market discourages ethical behavior all across the board. If one can't see it, then one hasn't seen restaurants, fast food or grocery stores up close.
  - salawat 7y ago
    Could you go into more detail on this? Lime specific examples? Not trying to be disingenuous; just apparently terribly unimaginative apparently. As far as I was aware the major driver of the absolute level of unethical behavior in the market tends to be your least ethical actor who lowers the bar for everyone. That I understand. Like Grocery stores that hire lots of part timers and only them, and limiting total hours to avoid paying benefits will tend to push out those that don't do that. Though I wasn't. at all under the impression that the problem encompassed as large a swath of businesses as you are asserting.
    - TeMPOraL 7y ago
      Most of what I know can be considered anecdotal; it's something I've seen myself, or heard about first- or second-hand. The amount of such stories, plus basic understanding of labor law history and dynamics of market forces, makes me conclude these stories are very much representative. Random examples I've seen and mentioned here in the past: - The franchised grocery store close to me would wash stale meat with detergent to stop it from smelling, then sell it as fresh. I only learned that because I was very friendly with the staff, and some of them started discretely warning me not to buy meat today. I understand it to be common practice. - Most of the small stores and cafes I know will not pay their employees for the time spent getting ready to man their station, cleaning up after work and closing down the place. Which means they get paid for 8 hours a day, but are expected to work 9. I think a related legal term is "donning and doffing". I learned that from being friends with people working in the service sector. - A very common theme that's especially important in the times of pandemic is that in low-end services jobs, like grocery store clerks, food preparers in restaurants, etc. sick leave does not exist in practice. It may on paper, but if you take it, you can kiss your pay - or sometimes even job - goodbye. Since people working there are on the low end of the wealth spectrum, it means they all just eat their painkillers and show up to work sick. - I've read some other horror stories about the back ends of restaurants. One I remember vividly is learning that your food may not be what it looks like. For instance, I've heard of places that do grilled chicken breasts by heating them up in the microwave and then dropping for a minute on a hot-dog bum iron, in order to give it the marks of grilling. - Don't get me started on e-commerce. Problems are brought up in every thread about Amazon or eBay (which I think is more often than weekly here). One spectacular failure is that of comments and rating systems. In my family circles I've had people working e-commerce; in each such place the boss would order their workers to create fake accounts and make fake orders (legitimately looking orders with self-pickup and payment on pickup, that never get sent or paid for), and then rate them positively. Meanwhile, if an actual customer leaves a negative comment, they'll get begged and bribed with discounts or free merchandise to take it down. As a result, the rating system is completely bogus. Notably, this is a problem created by the e-commerce platforms themselves, in the same way Uber made their ratings bullshit; if you're a seller and you drop below ~99% of customer satisfaction rate, you lose special privileges; go below ~97%, and you get suspended. Etc. etc. The common themes here are, 1) everyone does it because everyone else does it too, so those who don't can't compete, and 2) the players involved are too small for the legal system to go after them even if they break actual laws. I.e. market competition in the long tail.
- Mirioron 7y ago
  If you start holding them accountable for questionable ethics then you can expect to be lied to even more by them. They would constantly put out even more PR about how they are perfect angels and how their competitors are the worst people who have ever lived. Owning a newspaper suddenly becomes good for business.

by kavalg 7y ago

brmgb 7y ago

> Shouldn't the ethics be on the government side in such cases? Everyone should aim to act ethically especially during a crisis. I think we are generally far too lenient with corporations regarding their behaviours. Both stockholders and executives should be held accountable. By always viewing corporations as faceless entities, abstract monsters lead only by profits, we give these people a free pass. I don't think we should.

TeMPOraL 7y ago
We're far too lenient with everyone. If, as a society, we were to suddenly start holding people to most basic ethical standards, half of the small businesses would have to close. I'm not saying this to defend corporations - just pointing out that the market discourages ethical behavior all across the board. If one can't see it, then one hasn't seen restaurants, fast food or grocery stores up close.
- salawat 7y ago
  Could you go into more detail on this? Lime specific examples? Not trying to be disingenuous; just apparently terribly unimaginative apparently. As far as I was aware the major driver of the absolute level of unethical behavior in the market tends to be your least ethical actor who lowers the bar for everyone. That I understand. Like Grocery stores that hire lots of part timers and only them, and limiting total hours to avoid paying benefits will tend to push out those that don't do that. Though I wasn't. at all under the impression that the problem encompassed as large a swath of businesses as you are asserting.
  - TeMPOraL 7y ago
    Most of what I know can be considered anecdotal; it's something I've seen myself, or heard about first- or second-hand. The amount of such stories, plus basic understanding of labor law history and dynamics of market forces, makes me conclude these stories are very much representative. Random examples I've seen and mentioned here in the past: - The franchised grocery store close to me would wash stale meat with detergent to stop it from smelling, then sell it as fresh. I only learned that because I was very friendly with the staff, and some of them started discretely warning me not to buy meat today. I understand it to be common practice. - Most of the small stores and cafes I know will not pay their employees for the time spent getting ready to man their station, cleaning up after work and closing down the place. Which means they get paid for 8 hours a day, but are expected to work 9. I think a related legal term is "donning and doffing". I learned that from being friends with people working in the service sector. - A very common theme that's especially important in the times of pandemic is that in low-end services jobs, like grocery store clerks, food preparers in restaurants, etc. sick leave does not exist in practice. It may on paper, but if you take it, you can kiss your pay - or sometimes even job - goodbye. Since people working there are on the low end of the wealth spectrum, it means they all just eat their painkillers and show up to work sick. - I've read some other horror stories about the back ends of restaurants. One I remember vividly is learning that your food may not be what it looks like. For instance, I've heard of places that do grilled chicken breasts by heating them up in the microwave and then dropping for a minute on a hot-dog bum iron, in order to give it the marks of grilling. - Don't get me started on e-commerce. Problems are brought up in every thread about Amazon or eBay (which I think is more often than weekly here). One spectacular failure is that of comments and rating systems. In my family circles I've had people working e-commerce; in each such place the boss would order their workers to create fake accounts and make fake orders (legitimately looking orders with self-pickup and payment on pickup, that never get sent or paid for), and then rate them positively. Meanwhile, if an actual customer leaves a negative comment, they'll get begged and bribed with discounts or free merchandise to take it down. As a result, the rating system is completely bogus. Notably, this is a problem created by the e-commerce platforms themselves, in the same way Uber made their ratings bullshit; if you're a seller and you drop below ~99% of customer satisfaction rate, you lose special privileges; go below ~97%, and you get suspended. Etc. etc. The common themes here are, 1) everyone does it because everyone else does it too, so those who don't can't compete, and 2) the players involved are too small for the legal system to go after them even if they break actual laws. I.e. market competition in the long tail.
Mirioron 7y ago
If you start holding them accountable for questionable ethics then you can expect to be lied to even more by them. They would constantly put out even more PR about how they are perfect angels and how their competitors are the worst people who have ever lived. Owning a newspaper suddenly becomes good for business.