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I think the anger here is justified, but part of me is also thinking: does this really surprise anyone? All of these companies are doing everything they can to

I think the anger here is justified, but part of me is also thinking: does this really surprise anyone? All of these companies are doing everything they can to stay afloat, including some really distasteful things like this. Do we really expect companies to start acting morally when the economy is tanking? They exist to make money, which isn’t inherently immoral, don’t get me wrong. But if you’re hitting $100M annual revenue, chances are that you’ve done something at some point that exists in an ethical gray area, because the end goal is making money, not being morally responsible. Reminds me of that piece on Gresham’s law from earlier today.

WalterBright 6y ago
I don't see any evidence whatsoever that being unethical has anything to do with the size of the company.
- fxtentacle 6y ago
  Larger companies tend to attract different advisors. Like that friendly tax advisor who has a great idea for funneling a bit more cash tax-free into your own pockets.
  - chrisco255 6y ago
    If it's a legal loophole for paying less tax, that's fair game. Everyone does it. There's no one out there giving their extra cash to the U.S. treasury. Not that it's needed because they can just print unlimited amounts (within limits of what system can tolerate).
    - luckylion 6y ago
      > If it's a legal loophole for paying less tax, that's fair game. Legal != ethical. And even the legality is questionable, but it's hard to investigate those optimization strategies when top officials have extremely-well-paying side-gigs at tax consultancies (which is the German situation) and those benefiting from the loopholes are also donating large amounts to buy favors from those in power (which is the US situation).
      - chrisco255 6y ago
        Yeah you think the government itself is ethical? Sorry, the government does more than enough evil to justify saving 2% on your income taxes.
- dehrmann 6y ago
  There's an implicit notion around (mostly) progressive circles that big companies are inherently bad. Some are, some are good, lots are in the middle, and the same goes for small companies. With unemployment pushing 20%, this impacts all businesses, and there's no reason to assume the number of employees has that big of an impact on their ability to keep paying workers. This really isn't the time to pick and choose which companies are the "most deserving."
- dsfyu404ed 6y ago
  You could fill a library about all the volumes that have been written about managing organizational culture but the gist of it is that once the group is too large for everyone to feel as thought actions of other parts of the organization reflect on them personally it takes a lot of constant "cultural maintenance" to prevent an organization from becoming a self serving sociopath at the expense of it's long term mission. This isn't limited to companies or organizations with a profit motive. You see this behavior with nonprofits, special interest groups, unions, religions, government departments, militaries, etc, etc.
- save_ferris 6y ago
  Simple question: do you consider tax evasion unethical? I’m not arguing that every mid to large size company is guilty either, but we can’t ignore how common certain activities are in the market, things like share buybacks, the legal cases around corporate personhood, offshore tax havens, etc. Name a top tech company that doesn’t have an office in Ireland for taxation purposes. Joe’s tire shop down the street probably doesn’t, but I’d be willing to bet that a pretty significant percentage of the Fortune 500 do. Facebook, Apple, Google, Dell, Amazon, and many others do. They’ve created business structures that allow them to funnel money around the globe and avoid paying taxes on it. Is that illegal? Obviously not. Is it the right thing to do, especially as we live in a time where millions are out of work and starting to go hungry? Corporations that have expatriated billions in earnings on work done in the US are now asking for billions in bailouts, is that ethical? Again, mom and pop shops don’t have the influence to do this, but the Fortune 500 do.
  - save_ferris 6y ago
    To those downvoting, what’s incorrect about what I’ve said here?
    - Fjolsvith 6y ago
      I didn't downvote, but I'd wager that the downvoters just disliked what you said and couldn't refute your statement, or were too lazy to do it, or were afraid to risk karma. Or perhaps, they were afraid to do it because they work for a big corporation and could have their comment traced back to them and experience negative repercussions. But, I'd still wager they didn't like your statement and misused the downvote function.
  - mercutio2 6y ago
    You are describing tax avoidance, not evasion.
    - save_ferris 6y ago
      That’s fair, but the main point still stands. Is tax avoidance ethical? I’d say no, but I’m sure many would disagree.
- viklove 6y ago
  It's survivorship bias. Unethical companies end up growing faster because they do things ethical companies would not, and make more money for it. For example treating their full-time employees as contractors, not paying them a fair wage, skirting local laws, etc. Every successful business isn't evil, but most of them are, because it's much easier to be successful when you're evil. To compound that, in America we worship success more than we penalize evil, so you end up with a lot more successful evil companies.
hliyan 6y ago
> Do we really expect companies to start acting morally when the economy is tanking? Yes. It's better to hold people to the proper ethical standard and have it be violated, than just give up on ethics altogether.
- kavalg 6y ago
  While I am not in any way approving such unethical behavior, I think he probably meant that you just can't expect this from most of the CEOs. At least the market does not incentivize such behavior in the short term (I means before you company goes bust :)). Shouldn't the ethics be on the government side in such cases?
  - brmgb 6y ago
    > Shouldn't the ethics be on the government side in such cases? Everyone should aim to act ethically especially during a crisis. I think we are generally far too lenient with corporations regarding their behaviours. Both stockholders and executives should be held accountable. By always viewing corporations as faceless entities, abstract monsters lead only by profits, we give these people a free pass. I don't think we should.
    - TeMPOraL 6y ago
      We're far too lenient with everyone. If, as a society, we were to suddenly start holding people to most basic ethical standards, half of the small businesses would have to close. I'm not saying this to defend corporations - just pointing out that the market discourages ethical behavior all across the board. If one can't see it, then one hasn't seen restaurants, fast food or grocery stores up close.
      - salawat 6y ago
        Could you go into more detail on this? Lime specific examples? Not trying to be disingenuous; just apparently terribly unimaginative apparently. As far as I was aware the major driver of the absolute level of unethical behavior in the market tends to be your least ethical actor who lowers the bar for everyone. That I understand. Like Grocery stores that hire lots of part timers and only them, and limiting total hours to avoid paying benefits will tend to push out those that don't do that. Though I wasn't. at all under the impression that the problem encompassed as large a swath of businesses as you are asserting.

WalterBright 6y ago

I don't see any evidence whatsoever that being unethical has anything to do with the size of the company.

fxtentacle 6y ago
Larger companies tend to attract different advisors. Like that friendly tax advisor who has a great idea for funneling a bit more cash tax-free into your own pockets.
- chrisco255 6y ago
  If it's a legal loophole for paying less tax, that's fair game. Everyone does it. There's no one out there giving their extra cash to the U.S. treasury. Not that it's needed because they can just print unlimited amounts (within limits of what system can tolerate).
  - luckylion 6y ago
    > If it's a legal loophole for paying less tax, that's fair game. Legal != ethical. And even the legality is questionable, but it's hard to investigate those optimization strategies when top officials have extremely-well-paying side-gigs at tax consultancies (which is the German situation) and those benefiting from the loopholes are also donating large amounts to buy favors from those in power (which is the US situation).
    - chrisco255 6y ago
      Yeah you think the government itself is ethical? Sorry, the government does more than enough evil to justify saving 2% on your income taxes.
dehrmann 6y ago
There's an implicit notion around (mostly) progressive circles that big companies are inherently bad. Some are, some are good, lots are in the middle, and the same goes for small companies. With unemployment pushing 20%, this impacts all businesses, and there's no reason to assume the number of employees has that big of an impact on their ability to keep paying workers. This really isn't the time to pick and choose which companies are the "most deserving."
dsfyu404ed 6y ago
You could fill a library about all the volumes that have been written about managing organizational culture but the gist of it is that once the group is too large for everyone to feel as thought actions of other parts of the organization reflect on them personally it takes a lot of constant "cultural maintenance" to prevent an organization from becoming a self serving sociopath at the expense of it's long term mission. This isn't limited to companies or organizations with a profit motive. You see this behavior with nonprofits, special interest groups, unions, religions, government departments, militaries, etc, etc.
save_ferris 6y ago
Simple question: do you consider tax evasion unethical? I’m not arguing that every mid to large size company is guilty either, but we can’t ignore how common certain activities are in the market, things like share buybacks, the legal cases around corporate personhood, offshore tax havens, etc. Name a top tech company that doesn’t have an office in Ireland for taxation purposes. Joe’s tire shop down the street probably doesn’t, but I’d be willing to bet that a pretty significant percentage of the Fortune 500 do. Facebook, Apple, Google, Dell, Amazon, and many others do. They’ve created business structures that allow them to funnel money around the globe and avoid paying taxes on it. Is that illegal? Obviously not. Is it the right thing to do, especially as we live in a time where millions are out of work and starting to go hungry? Corporations that have expatriated billions in earnings on work done in the US are now asking for billions in bailouts, is that ethical? Again, mom and pop shops don’t have the influence to do this, but the Fortune 500 do.
- save_ferris 6y ago
  To those downvoting, what’s incorrect about what I’ve said here?
  - Fjolsvith 6y ago
    I didn't downvote, but I'd wager that the downvoters just disliked what you said and couldn't refute your statement, or were too lazy to do it, or were afraid to risk karma. Or perhaps, they were afraid to do it because they work for a big corporation and could have their comment traced back to them and experience negative repercussions. But, I'd still wager they didn't like your statement and misused the downvote function.
- mercutio2 6y ago
  You are describing tax avoidance, not evasion.
  - save_ferris 6y ago
    That’s fair, but the main point still stands. Is tax avoidance ethical? I’d say no, but I’m sure many would disagree.
viklove 6y ago
It's survivorship bias. Unethical companies end up growing faster because they do things ethical companies would not, and make more money for it. For example treating their full-time employees as contractors, not paying them a fair wage, skirting local laws, etc. Every successful business isn't evil, but most of them are, because it's much easier to be successful when you're evil. To compound that, in America we worship success more than we penalize evil, so you end up with a lot more successful evil companies.

hliyan 6y ago

> Do we really expect companies to start acting morally when the economy is tanking? Yes. It's better to hold people to the proper ethical standard and have it be violated, than just give up on ethics altogether.

kavalg 6y ago
While I am not in any way approving such unethical behavior, I think he probably meant that you just can't expect this from most of the CEOs. At least the market does not incentivize such behavior in the short term (I means before you company goes bust :)). Shouldn't the ethics be on the government side in such cases?
- brmgb 6y ago
  > Shouldn't the ethics be on the government side in such cases? Everyone should aim to act ethically especially during a crisis. I think we are generally far too lenient with corporations regarding their behaviours. Both stockholders and executives should be held accountable. By always viewing corporations as faceless entities, abstract monsters lead only by profits, we give these people a free pass. I don't think we should.
  - TeMPOraL 6y ago
    We're far too lenient with everyone. If, as a society, we were to suddenly start holding people to most basic ethical standards, half of the small businesses would have to close. I'm not saying this to defend corporations - just pointing out that the market discourages ethical behavior all across the board. If one can't see it, then one hasn't seen restaurants, fast food or grocery stores up close.
    - salawat 6y ago
      Could you go into more detail on this? Lime specific examples? Not trying to be disingenuous; just apparently terribly unimaginative apparently. As far as I was aware the major driver of the absolute level of unethical behavior in the market tends to be your least ethical actor who lowers the bar for everyone. That I understand. Like Grocery stores that hire lots of part timers and only them, and limiting total hours to avoid paying benefits will tend to push out those that don't do that. Though I wasn't. at all under the impression that the problem encompassed as large a swath of businesses as you are asserting.