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> The crisis highlights the contrast between the competent responses of East Asian governments (notably China, South Korea and Singapore) and the incompetent re

by vosper 7y ago

> The crisis highlights the contrast between the competent responses of East Asian governments (notably China, South Korea and Singapore) and the incompetent responses of Western governments (such as Italy, Spain, France, Britain and America). The far lower death rates suffered by East Asian countries is a lesson to all. They reflect not just medical capabilities, but also the quality of governance and the cultural confidence of their societies. Ooh, can I do some cherry-picking, too? How about the incompetent response of the Japanese government, where it's gotten so bad that healthcare workers warned their healthcare system may collapse [0] Singapore's having their own Covid resurgence [1], related to those underpaid and exploited migrant workers, crammed into dormitories, which they'd like everyone to continue to pretend don't exist (in Singapore the streets clean themselves). In the Phillipines Duterte has used the pandemic to seize even more power for himself, heading in the direction of becoming a fully-fledged military dictator. [2] For Western governments, how about the lauded [3] response of New Zealand [4] and, perhaps to a lesser extent, Australia? This is an article that started with a thesis (China will use its power!), cherry-picks a tiny amount of supporting evidence to tie in with Covid (so topical right now), then wanders off down the well-trodden path of speculating about future Chinese influence (despite the initial mentions of Singapore and South Korea, this is article actually only about China) and the downfall of the West. [0] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-52336388 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-52336388 [1] https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/singapore/covid-19-new-cases-1426-foreign-workers-dormitory-citizen-pr-moh-12658250 https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/singapore/covid-19-new-... [2] https://edition.cnn.com/2020/04/20/opinions/duterte-covid-19-philippines-repression-hartung/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2020/04/20/opinions/duterte-covid-19... [3] https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/04/jacinda-ardern-new-zealand-leadership-coronavirus/610237/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/04/jacinda... [4] Disclosure: I'm a Kiwi, and think our government have done a reasonably good job responding to the pandemic. I also think foreign press lavishes far too much praise our on government and Prime Minister.

ShorsHammer 7y ago
NZ and Aus wasn't in flu season already, this has a big impact on outcomes, we got lucky in that respect with forewarning. Singapore's resurgence is pretty unavoidable, there's simply nowhere else for these foreign workers to go. Despite the case numbers deaths are remarkably low, basically all of these dorms are getting tested leading to resurgence in case numbers, it's tens of thousands of people. So despite all the socio-political criticisms in your post how about addressing the quoted comment? They are far lower death rates, it's undeniable. Singapore has had 11 deaths. Malaysia 90. South Korea and Japan ~230.
- vosper 7y ago
  > Singapore's resurgence is pretty unavoidable, there's simply nowhere else for these foreign workers to go. Despite the case numbers deaths are remarkably low, basically all of these dorms are getting tested leading to resurgence in case numbers, it's tens of thousands of people. > So despite all the socio-political criticisms in your post how about addressing the quoted comment? > They are far lower death rates, it's undeniable. Singapore has had 11 deaths. Malaysia 90. South Korea and Japan ~230. The deaths lag behind the newly-identified infections. Singapore's resurgence now won't translate into more deaths for a 5-15 days. Japan's probably in the same situation - aging population and all. The article I linked to, warning of a "collapse" in Japan's healthcare system, doesn't inspire a lot of hope for the immediate future. I didn't say anything about South Korea or Malaysia, seems like they've done a good job so far. I'm not saying all his examples are wrong, just that he's cherry-picking. Anyway the article has nothing really to do with South Korea or Singapore or Malaysia - Malaysia is not even mentioned! He could have mentioned them, if they're doing well and the article was actually about Asian leadership in the crisis and it's after effects, and not just more speculation about China's possible political intentions.
- cylinder 7y ago
  we were in flu season - 2200 cases in Feb in Australia. Social distancing killed the flu too.
- lazylizard 7y ago
  328k ppl living in those dorms.
- squiggleblaz 7y ago
  Since a coronavirus isn't an influenza virus, I don't see what it matters whether Australia or New Zealand were in flu season. Moreover, it's now flu season and people are tiring of the social distancing measures and new cases per day are extremely low. Australians and New Zealanders can rightly be annoyed that the responses were not excellent - but the responses were basically adequate. They were just enough and a little bit late - compared to europe which was too little too late. If diverse countries like Taiwan, South Korea, Malaysia and Vietnam were capable of mounting competent responses (during the Taiwanese/South Korean flu season), there is no reason to say that Australia/New Zealand were somehow incapable. It's far more likely that we were "lucky" because our timezone and flight time was too far apart to become part of the conversations that lead to social suicide, so our leaders made basically competent responses.
cylinder 7y ago
Not a lesser extent for Aus - lower cases per capita including deaths. And most cases in Aus were acquired overseas
- vosper 7y ago
  Yeah, fair enough - Australia has had good results with their policies, too.
ourlordcaffeine 7y ago
Don't forget that Taiwan handled covid-19 the best of all, and they are a democracy. The whole "democracy has failed to handle covid-19" narrative falls apart once you stop cherrypicking
squiggleblaz 7y ago
I don't think the claim was "All eastern governments did well", but more like "Most governments that did well, especially the ones vying for international clout, were eastern". Australia and New Zealand have never been considered particularly influential or leaders on the western stage. Although other westerners like us, we are not especially influential. The influence we have sought to exert on the developing world has been limited to South East Asia and the Pacific Islands, were states are generally doing well so the adequate response of ANZ is merely likely to get them to say "look, we're not so different" rather than "oh we respect you". So it seems barely relevant.

by vosper 7y ago

ShorsHammer 7y ago

NZ and Aus wasn't in flu season already, this has a big impact on outcomes, we got lucky in that respect with forewarning. Singapore's resurgence is pretty unavoidable, there's simply nowhere else for these foreign workers to go. Despite the case numbers deaths are remarkably low, basically all of these dorms are getting tested leading to resurgence in case numbers, it's tens of thousands of people. So despite all the socio-political criticisms in your post how about addressing the quoted comment? They are far lower death rates, it's undeniable. Singapore has had 11 deaths. Malaysia 90. South Korea and Japan ~230.

vosper 7y ago
> Singapore's resurgence is pretty unavoidable, there's simply nowhere else for these foreign workers to go. Despite the case numbers deaths are remarkably low, basically all of these dorms are getting tested leading to resurgence in case numbers, it's tens of thousands of people. > So despite all the socio-political criticisms in your post how about addressing the quoted comment? > They are far lower death rates, it's undeniable. Singapore has had 11 deaths. Malaysia 90. South Korea and Japan ~230. The deaths lag behind the newly-identified infections. Singapore's resurgence now won't translate into more deaths for a 5-15 days. Japan's probably in the same situation - aging population and all. The article I linked to, warning of a "collapse" in Japan's healthcare system, doesn't inspire a lot of hope for the immediate future. I didn't say anything about South Korea or Malaysia, seems like they've done a good job so far. I'm not saying all his examples are wrong, just that he's cherry-picking. Anyway the article has nothing really to do with South Korea or Singapore or Malaysia - Malaysia is not even mentioned! He could have mentioned them, if they're doing well and the article was actually about Asian leadership in the crisis and it's after effects, and not just more speculation about China's possible political intentions.
cylinder 7y ago
we were in flu season - 2200 cases in Feb in Australia. Social distancing killed the flu too.
lazylizard 7y ago
328k ppl living in those dorms.
squiggleblaz 7y ago
Since a coronavirus isn't an influenza virus, I don't see what it matters whether Australia or New Zealand were in flu season. Moreover, it's now flu season and people are tiring of the social distancing measures and new cases per day are extremely low. Australians and New Zealanders can rightly be annoyed that the responses were not excellent - but the responses were basically adequate. They were just enough and a little bit late - compared to europe which was too little too late. If diverse countries like Taiwan, South Korea, Malaysia and Vietnam were capable of mounting competent responses (during the Taiwanese/South Korean flu season), there is no reason to say that Australia/New Zealand were somehow incapable. It's far more likely that we were "lucky" because our timezone and flight time was too far apart to become part of the conversations that lead to social suicide, so our leaders made basically competent responses.

cylinder 7y ago

Not a lesser extent for Aus - lower cases per capita including deaths. And most cases in Aus were acquired overseas

vosper 7y ago
Yeah, fair enough - Australia has had good results with their policies, too.

ourlordcaffeine 7y ago

Don't forget that Taiwan handled covid-19 the best of all, and they are a democracy. The whole "democracy has failed to handle covid-19" narrative falls apart once you stop cherrypicking

squiggleblaz 7y ago

I don't think the claim was "All eastern governments did well", but more like "Most governments that did well, especially the ones vying for international clout, were eastern". Australia and New Zealand have never been considered particularly influential or leaders on the western stage. Although other westerners like us, we are not especially influential. The influence we have sought to exert on the developing world has been limited to South East Asia and the Pacific Islands, were states are generally doing well so the adequate response of ANZ is merely likely to get them to say "look, we're not so different" rather than "oh we respect you". So it seems barely relevant.