6 ms·

I don't see the link here. Yes there are 22 million laid off. But given a choice between being alive and being jobless, I think people would choose being jobles

I don't see the link here. Yes there are 22 million laid off. But given a choice between being alive and being jobless, I think people would choose being jobless. The people protesting are not the same people lining up at food banks. I have seen wapo video of Michigan protest. People there were angry because they want to get their hair done or buy paint and fertilizer. They want others to go to work to they can stay home.

pacala 6y ago
The disease does not affect age groups equally. From what I've seen, most victims are in the 60+ age groups. From NYC fatality report [0]: 0-9: 1 0% 10-19: 6 0.1% 20-29: 56 0.4% 30-39: 227 1.6% 40-49: 535 3.7% 50-59: 1410 9.8% 60-69: 2863 20.0% 70-79: 3811 26.6% 80-89: 1753 25.4% 90+: 12.2% Think of people having a "vitality score" that decreases with age, and of disease as a stressor that kills people with the "vitality score" under a certain threshold. That's how the yearly flu works, by culling people under the threshold. We attribute the death to "the flu", but we could easily also call it "death by old age". Most working age people will be just fine. Except they are jobless. Terrible times. [0] https://covid19tracker.health.ny.gov/views/NYS-COVID19-Tracker/NYSDOHCOVID-19Tracker-Fatalities?%3Aembed=yes&%3Atoolbar=no&%3Atabs=n https://covid19tracker.health.ny.gov/views/NYS-COVID19-Track...
- phakding 6y ago
  So you are okay with 16 out of every 1000, 30-39 year old person with a family and young kids who are otherwise healthy, die just so you could go out to eat in your favorite restaurant? You are willing to sacrifice them for your benefit. How altruistic of you!
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - pacala 6y ago
    Nitpick: The percentages sum up to 100, and represent the percent of total deaths, not deaths among people of certain age. Not sure pointing fingers helps. Someone could also point fingers and claim "so you're willing to let people starve in the streets, how altruistic of you". It's a highly emotional and volatile situation, let's keep our cool.
  - megavolcano 6y ago
    Considering that the more data we get with regards to fatality rate, it's looking more and more along the lines of the seasonal flu (which has a vaccine, generally). The drastic measures taken to protect a tiny minority of people are looking to be more and more pointless. We would not tolerate shutting down the world economy to protect people from the seasonal flu, and we should not tolerate it for this.
    - phakding 6y ago
      And how do you know the fatality rate of flu? That stat is not even reported. Even CDC only has an estimation of flu deaths. Besides, many strains of flu has a vaccines available. Nothing of that sort exists for corona. https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/season/flu-season-2017-2018.htm#anchor_1534865810538 https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/season/flu-season-2017-2018.ht...
      - megavolcano 6y ago
        You answered your own question. When comparing estimated flu deaths to the overinflatted corona reported deaths. Do I really need to be so pedantic? Vaccines existing for the flu is the point, COVID is way less deadly considering we don't_ have a vaccine.
        phakding 6y ago
        I am sorry, but you read like fox news propoganda. "overinflatted corona reported deaths". Really? any proof to that? Pedantic, you need to be factual and truthful.
        megavolcano 6y ago
        https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/14/nyregion/new-york-coronavirus-deaths.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/14/nyregion/new-york-coronav... "The city has added more than 3,700 additional people who were presumed to have died of the coronavirus but had never tested positive." I suppose the New York Times is propoganda? I know Donald Trump would agree with that statement...
Press2forEN 6y ago
The choice between being alive and being jobless is a false dichotomy.
- phakding 6y ago
  May be for healthy, but not for the people with certain underlying conditions like diabetes, high BP, obesity etc. Also even if you are not vulnerable to the disease, you could be spreading this to the others who are even without showing symptoms. Look at Sweden. They decided to let the people at risk stay home while others go out and about their business. Didn't work out too well for them.
  - orangecat 6y ago
    Sweden has about the same per-capita death rate as the US and Switzerland, and lower than the UK, Spain, and Belgium. (See https://91-divoc.com/pages/covid-visualization/ https://91-divoc.com/pages/covid-visualization/). It's certainly possible that they'd be doing better with more restrictions, but if their strategy is as disastrous as many people seem to think then they'd be at the top of the charts, and they're not.
    - phakding 6y ago
      That sort of proves my point. UK didn't even want to restrict anything. Netherlands, Italy and Spain acted too late. Sweden decides to selectively restrict. In US people are willing to sacrifice human life for economic activity and no wonder all these countries are worse off as far as fatality rate goes compared some other countries like Germany or India.
      - orangecat 6y ago
        It's just odd that I constantly hear how horribly Sweden is doing, and not a peep about Switzerland. In US people are willing to sacrifice human life for economic activity How many additional COVID19 deaths would you accept to avoid a crippling economic depression? If the answer is zero, you are not being serious. If the answer is more than zero, then as Churchill noted, we've established what kind of person you are and are now haggling over price.
cpwright 6y ago
The "choice between being alive and being jobless" is a matter of probabilities, which people are not great at. If you are not elderly, you likely have a higher chance of being unemployed than dying of COVID-19. So the choice is not between being alive and being jobless, it is an abstract unknown person getting sick and dying vs. you personally losing your income.
stri8ed 6y ago
> But given a choice between being alive and being jobless To be fair that is not the actual choice on offer. Its more like being jobless, vs accepting a certain (in some cases low) probability of dying.
- maxerickson 6y ago
  It's not just a personal calculation though. People that are infected spread the disease and consume medical resources. Those things both impact the rest of society.
BurningFrog 6y ago
> But given a choice between being alive and being jobless, Read literally, this says everyone who returns to work will die. For the future, I recommend more nuance in your writing. Losing your livelihood does carry a substantial risk of increased death.
- 52-6F-62 6y ago
  Is that so universally true? I'm thankful right now that I live in Canada where every week—sometimes multiple times a week—measures are added or adjusted in order to prevent anyone from falling through the cracks. Some businesses have faltered or are closing permanently, but many others are receiving substantial support. We're currently beating the projections in Ontario, and while this is not an easy time, every action necessary is being taken to at least try and prevent as many deaths by this thing as possible. I think things would look different if the United States had taken different measures to support people during this crisis. The barber in this narrative should receive enough aid to get by, and enough support for their business for it to persist until it can reopen—and the people who just want their hair done should just have to wait.
  - BurningFrog 6y ago
    Sure, if the government replaces your livelihood, it becomes much less of an issue. Of course, such measures can only work for a while until things start breaking down. We can do without barbers for quite a while, but the more professions are offline, the worse the accumulated effect is.
    - 52-6F-62 6y ago
      I don't think these measures were ever intended to be in effect in perpetuity. They're widely understood to be a stop-gap. It seems like a good strategy to me because it appears to be working. It's not perfect, but it's definitely helping. It's even making me believe in good government. Not perfect, but good. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace,_order,_and_good_government https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace,_order,_and_good_governm...
ShorsHammer 6y ago
> But given a choice between being alive and being jobless Is that actually the choice being made here?
sethammons 6y ago
> But given a choice between being alive and being jobless, I think people would choose being jobless. That is not the choice. The choice is between some uncertain chance of death plus a chance to spread the infection and a certain lack of income.

pacala 6y ago

The disease does not affect age groups equally. From what I've seen, most victims are in the 60+ age groups. From NYC fatality report [0]: 0-9: 1 0% 10-19: 6 0.1% 20-29: 56 0.4% 30-39: 227 1.6% 40-49: 535 3.7% 50-59: 1410 9.8% 60-69: 2863 20.0% 70-79: 3811 26.6% 80-89: 1753 25.4% 90+: 12.2% Think of people having a "vitality score" that decreases with age, and of disease as a stressor that kills people with the "vitality score" under a certain threshold. That's how the yearly flu works, by culling people under the threshold. We attribute the death to "the flu", but we could easily also call it "death by old age". Most working age people will be just fine. Except they are jobless. Terrible times. [0] https://covid19tracker.health.ny.gov/views/NYS-COVID19-Tracker/NYSDOHCOVID-19Tracker-Fatalities?%3Aembed=yes&%3Atoolbar=no&%3Atabs=n https://covid19tracker.health.ny.gov/views/NYS-COVID19-Track...

phakding 6y ago
So you are okay with 16 out of every 1000, 30-39 year old person with a family and young kids who are otherwise healthy, die just so you could go out to eat in your favorite restaurant? You are willing to sacrifice them for your benefit. How altruistic of you!
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- pacala 6y ago
  Nitpick: The percentages sum up to 100, and represent the percent of total deaths, not deaths among people of certain age. Not sure pointing fingers helps. Someone could also point fingers and claim "so you're willing to let people starve in the streets, how altruistic of you". It's a highly emotional and volatile situation, let's keep our cool.
- megavolcano 6y ago
  Considering that the more data we get with regards to fatality rate, it's looking more and more along the lines of the seasonal flu (which has a vaccine, generally). The drastic measures taken to protect a tiny minority of people are looking to be more and more pointless. We would not tolerate shutting down the world economy to protect people from the seasonal flu, and we should not tolerate it for this.
  - phakding 6y ago
    And how do you know the fatality rate of flu? That stat is not even reported. Even CDC only has an estimation of flu deaths. Besides, many strains of flu has a vaccines available. Nothing of that sort exists for corona. https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/season/flu-season-2017-2018.htm#anchor_1534865810538 https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/season/flu-season-2017-2018.ht...
    - megavolcano 6y ago
      You answered your own question. When comparing estimated flu deaths to the overinflatted corona reported deaths. Do I really need to be so pedantic? Vaccines existing for the flu is the point, COVID is way less deadly considering we don't_ have a vaccine.
      - phakding 6y ago
        I am sorry, but you read like fox news propoganda. "overinflatted corona reported deaths". Really? any proof to that? Pedantic, you need to be factual and truthful.
        megavolcano 6y ago
        https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/14/nyregion/new-york-coronavirus-deaths.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/14/nyregion/new-york-coronav... "The city has added more than 3,700 additional people who were presumed to have died of the coronavirus but had never tested positive." I suppose the New York Times is propoganda? I know Donald Trump would agree with that statement...

Press2forEN 6y ago

The choice between being alive and being jobless is a false dichotomy.

phakding 6y ago
May be for healthy, but not for the people with certain underlying conditions like diabetes, high BP, obesity etc. Also even if you are not vulnerable to the disease, you could be spreading this to the others who are even without showing symptoms. Look at Sweden. They decided to let the people at risk stay home while others go out and about their business. Didn't work out too well for them.
- orangecat 6y ago
  Sweden has about the same per-capita death rate as the US and Switzerland, and lower than the UK, Spain, and Belgium. (See https://91-divoc.com/pages/covid-visualization/ https://91-divoc.com/pages/covid-visualization/). It's certainly possible that they'd be doing better with more restrictions, but if their strategy is as disastrous as many people seem to think then they'd be at the top of the charts, and they're not.
  - phakding 6y ago
    That sort of proves my point. UK didn't even want to restrict anything. Netherlands, Italy and Spain acted too late. Sweden decides to selectively restrict. In US people are willing to sacrifice human life for economic activity and no wonder all these countries are worse off as far as fatality rate goes compared some other countries like Germany or India.
    - orangecat 6y ago
      It's just odd that I constantly hear how horribly Sweden is doing, and not a peep about Switzerland. In US people are willing to sacrifice human life for economic activity How many additional COVID19 deaths would you accept to avoid a crippling economic depression? If the answer is zero, you are not being serious. If the answer is more than zero, then as Churchill noted, we've established what kind of person you are and are now haggling over price.

cpwright 6y ago

The "choice between being alive and being jobless" is a matter of probabilities, which people are not great at. If you are not elderly, you likely have a higher chance of being unemployed than dying of COVID-19. So the choice is not between being alive and being jobless, it is an abstract unknown person getting sick and dying vs. you personally losing your income.

stri8ed 6y ago

> But given a choice between being alive and being jobless To be fair that is not the actual choice on offer. Its more like being jobless, vs accepting a certain (in some cases low) probability of dying.

maxerickson 6y ago
It's not just a personal calculation though. People that are infected spread the disease and consume medical resources. Those things both impact the rest of society.

BurningFrog 6y ago

> But given a choice between being alive and being jobless, Read literally, this says everyone who returns to work will die. For the future, I recommend more nuance in your writing. Losing your livelihood does carry a substantial risk of increased death.

52-6F-62 6y ago
Is that so universally true? I'm thankful right now that I live in Canada where every week—sometimes multiple times a week—measures are added or adjusted in order to prevent anyone from falling through the cracks. Some businesses have faltered or are closing permanently, but many others are receiving substantial support. We're currently beating the projections in Ontario, and while this is not an easy time, every action necessary is being taken to at least try and prevent as many deaths by this thing as possible. I think things would look different if the United States had taken different measures to support people during this crisis. The barber in this narrative should receive enough aid to get by, and enough support for their business for it to persist until it can reopen—and the people who just want their hair done should just have to wait.
- BurningFrog 6y ago
  Sure, if the government replaces your livelihood, it becomes much less of an issue. Of course, such measures can only work for a while until things start breaking down. We can do without barbers for quite a while, but the more professions are offline, the worse the accumulated effect is.
  - 52-6F-62 6y ago
    I don't think these measures were ever intended to be in effect in perpetuity. They're widely understood to be a stop-gap. It seems like a good strategy to me because it appears to be working. It's not perfect, but it's definitely helping. It's even making me believe in good government. Not perfect, but good. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace,_order,_and_good_government https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace,_order,_and_good_governm...

ShorsHammer 6y ago

> But given a choice between being alive and being jobless Is that actually the choice being made here?

sethammons 6y ago

> But given a choice between being alive and being jobless, I think people would choose being jobless. That is not the choice. The choice is between some uncertain chance of death plus a chance to spread the infection and a certain lack of income.