6 ms·

Let's jump to the conclusion here that Russia is still meddling in American politics, society and culture. What I cannot believe is how the USA still allows th

by anonu 7y ago

Let's jump to the conclusion here that Russia is still meddling in American politics, society and culture. What I cannot believe is how the USA still allows this after all the country has been through with the current administration, investigations, impeachments. USA's most important characteristics: openness, freedom, independence are just tools and weapons used against us. And we never learn...

AnimalMuppet 7y ago
I don't know how you got from the article to your first paragraph. Maybe we shouldn't just to that conclusion. (It may in fact be true, but maybe, you know, evidence, rather than just assuming?)
- toomanyrichies 7y ago
  I mean, to quote the article itself: "A Twitter account tied to Murphy’s email address promoted nothing but spammy paid surveys for years. And a Skype lookup on his phone number curiously returns a Russian profile under the name валентина сынах (translated as “Valentine Sons”)." Not saying it's a smoking gun, but it's hardly as baseless as you're claiming.
  - AnimalMuppet 7y ago
    Ah. I read (I thought) the article, but I apparently got fooled by an ad break, and thought I had reached the end. Still, even if true, that's Murphy. That's not the Dorr brothers, or the Koch site, or the Orange County Republicans. So, even if Murphy is a Russian cutout, much of the rest of this isn't. That leaves anonu's point as somewhat valid - they're still meddling, at least to some degree (and in fact, I kind of presume that they would continue to try to do so) - but his comment still seems like a bit of a reach for a response to the article. One of those registering has a maybe-to-plausible Russian link, so let's veer off and talk about Russian meddling? Yes, we do in fact need to talk about it (and more, find ways to stop it), but this article doesn't seem like the place.
- wtallis 7y ago
  Even if there's only weak evidence tying this particular astroturfing campaign to Russia, there is no reason whatsoever to expect that Russia has backed off their efforts more generally. They've had great success so far with few meaningful repercussions. When you find organized political astroturfing online (especially with an apparent aim to sow discord), Russia now has to be on the list of suspects even before there's any specific evidence tying it to Russia. The prior probability of Russian involvement is high enough that almost any shred of specific evidence is enough to put them near the top of the suspect list.
  - 3fe9a03ccd14ca5 7y ago
    You should read the followup to all of the “meddling” uncover by the special counsel in the last year. I think you may be surprised! I’m still surprised that Bloomberg spent $1.2 billion on his campaign and barely scraped a delegate. But Russia spends a few thousand on facebook ads and boom!
    - wtallis 7y ago
      > I think you may be surprised! This kind of vague aspersion is inappropriate. If you have a point, make it.
captncraig 7y ago
While the current administration is turning a blind eye and I wish they wouldn't, the Russian connection here was only discovered after many layers of digging, and is still just conjecture. After a few more iterations, they will learn how to close the gaps and be more and more untraceable. I don't know how it is possible to combat that.
nexuist 7y ago
Assuming this is all true, how do you even tackle something like this while preserving the concept of freedom? If the government goes after groups of people for "meddling in elections" - well, that's very vague, isn't it? Maybe most people don't have a problem with the FBI looking into domain registrations, cross-checking credit card payments, obtaining warrants for Google Analytics / Namecheap / etc...but investigating random web developers for alleged "ties to Russia" sounds eerily similar to McCarthyism.
- karatestomp 7y ago
  I’m beginning to think a free, international Internet isn’t compatible with democracy. The medium is the message and the message of the Internet might end up being autocracy and hyper-effective propaganda and disinformation. I’m not sure it practically can live up to what we hoped it would be—some kind of liberating, enlightening force. It may just not be that, and it may be that no amount of tinkering will fix it.
  - xxpor 7y ago
    An uneducated populace isn't compatible with democracy. This is just yet another manifestation of that.
  - bilbo0s 7y ago
    I don't think there will be a free, international internet much longer. Between the money that can be made by local internet companies and the dangers to the incumbent power structures, I'm sure we'll start seeing more and more china-like internet setups in the future.
- jorblumesea 7y ago
  The intelligence community knows the Russian actors are and where they are hitting from, for the most part. The issue is getting the political and business leadership to take it seriously and do something about it. The current administration has not taken the problem as seriously as it is for a wide variety of internal and political reasons. Neither has Facebook done much about limiting or policing political ads. The problem space is pretty clear, getting actors in the space to do something about it...
seppin 7y ago
The domestic supply of disinformation has always outpaced the foreign supply. That doesn't mean they both don't exist and can and do have an affect.
jshier 7y ago
That's simple: we're not "through" anything until those responsible are out of power. Until they are they'll continue to allow and support, publicly and privately, any and all meddling that benefits them. We'll see what "America's" response is this November.
Natsu 7y ago
> What I cannot believe is how the USA still allows this Mueller's prosecutors dropped their prosecution when the Russian company charged sent lawyers to court because, among other things, they did not want to have to present their evidence in court.
oldsklgdfth 7y ago
I am be very cynical, but as long as there is power to consolidate there will be a struggle for it. This is a constant game being played on the populace. Not from Russia to the US. From those seeking to control to the controlled. > openness, freedom, independence are just tools tools are only are good as the user. I had a friend in high school that lost 2 fingers to a tablesaw. I don't anyone thought it was used against him.
rustamm 7y ago
What I don't understand is what is the point blaming other forces/countries for exploiting something that is so easily exploitable. If you have a wide-open security holes in your system they will be exploited by everyone who can potentially benefit from this. Other than Russia/China/<Villain of the week> there are many other actors who have incentives to meddle in the society, e.g. - The US government - Large Businesses Example from the article: "Reopenmississippi.com was registered on April 16 to In Pursuit of LLC, an Arlington, Va.-based conservative group with a number of former employees who currently work at the White House or in cabinet agencies (link: https://projects.propublica.org/trump-town/organizations/in-pursuit-of-llc https://projects.propublica.org/trump-town/organizations/in-...). A 2016 story from USA Today says In Pursuit Of LLC is a for-profit communications agency launched by billionaire industrialist Charles Koch." - T-shirt sellers? "A number of other sites — such as reopennc.com — seem to exist merely to sell t-shirts, decals and yard signs with such slogans as “Know Your Rights,” “Live Free or Die,” and “Facts not Fear.” WHOIS records show the same Florida resident who registered this North Carolina site also registered one for New York — reopenny.com — just a few minutes later." At this point it is so easy to anonymously set up these websites and protest groups that a bored high-school student can do it. Instead of putting blame on this or that country, efforts should be focused on creating some kind of a online reputation system so that any content posted would contain a signature that ties it to the author. If the signature is missing then you know the source is likely untrustworthy. Pros: no need for censorship. anyone can still post anything online. Cons: users need to be educated about this feature. It has to be supported by major browsers as a first-party component. Otherwise we see more ridiculous initiatives like this from GitLab where they ban hiring engineers from Russia on certain positions: "WIP: Support Engineer Job family country-of-residence block" (https://gitlab.com/gitlab-com/www-gitlab-com/issues/5555 https://gitlab.com/gitlab-com/www-gitlab-com/issues/5555). EDIT: fixed typos
- toast0 7y ago
  > WHOIS records show the same Florida resident who registered this North Carolina site also registered one for New York — reopenny.com — just a few minutes later." At this point it is so easy to anonymously set up these websites and protest groups that a bored high-school student can do it. Instead of putting blame on this or that country, efforts should be focused on creating some kind of a online reputation system so that any content posted would contain a signature that ties it to the author. The person selling shirts isn't doing it anonymously if whois records reflect that person's ownership of sites targeting different states. I don't see how a reputation system helps much, if Florida man hits a chord with people, his site is going to have high reputation, regardless of any facts or not. Unless you're suggesting a centralized arbiter of truthiness, but that has myriad problems too. Unfortunately, I don't think people are going to realize trusting random people until they experience the poor results for themselves. This is a slow process.
imglorp 7y ago
There's some news about that. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/18/russian-media-spreading-covid-19-disinformation https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/18/russian-media-...
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
empath75 7y ago
I actually think that it wasn’t so much the fact of Russian interference, the us does similar things all over the world — it was that a domestic political party collaborated with them.
yesenadam 7y ago
>USA's most important characteristics: openness, freedom, independence Another is meddling in the politics of other countries. The list is amazing. Not to mention actually invading, bombing etc. The first google result "US Interfered in Elections of at Least 85 Countries Worldwide Since 1945" https://www.globalresearch.ca/us-interfered-in-elections-of-at-least-85-countries-worldwide-since-1945/5601481 https://www.globalresearch.ca/us-interfered-in-elections-of-...
- anonu 7y ago
  Sure... you can go on for days about how the US meddles in foreign affairs. Thats a bigger debate and question about the US position in the world, etc.. etc... But your general point can be classified as "what aboutism", which is really just a distraction from the core question...
  - yesenadam 7y ago
    Student in playground: Hey, they just hit me! That's outrageous! They just envy my amazing openness, freedom and independence. Teacher: But I was watching, and I saw you hit 85 other students in the playground today! Student: Sure...you can go on for days about that. Thats a bigger debate and question about my position in the school, etc.. etc... But your general point can be classified as "what aboutism", which is really just a distraction from the core question...

by anonu 7y ago

AnimalMuppet 7y ago

I don't know how you got from the article to your first paragraph. Maybe we shouldn't just to that conclusion. (It may in fact be true, but maybe, you know, evidence, rather than just assuming?)

toomanyrichies 7y ago
I mean, to quote the article itself: "A Twitter account tied to Murphy’s email address promoted nothing but spammy paid surveys for years. And a Skype lookup on his phone number curiously returns a Russian profile under the name валентина сынах (translated as “Valentine Sons”)." Not saying it's a smoking gun, but it's hardly as baseless as you're claiming.
- AnimalMuppet 7y ago
  Ah. I read (I thought) the article, but I apparently got fooled by an ad break, and thought I had reached the end. Still, even if true, that's Murphy. That's not the Dorr brothers, or the Koch site, or the Orange County Republicans. So, even if Murphy is a Russian cutout, much of the rest of this isn't. That leaves anonu's point as somewhat valid - they're still meddling, at least to some degree (and in fact, I kind of presume that they would continue to try to do so) - but his comment still seems like a bit of a reach for a response to the article. One of those registering has a maybe-to-plausible Russian link, so let's veer off and talk about Russian meddling? Yes, we do in fact need to talk about it (and more, find ways to stop it), but this article doesn't seem like the place.
wtallis 7y ago
Even if there's only weak evidence tying this particular astroturfing campaign to Russia, there is no reason whatsoever to expect that Russia has backed off their efforts more generally. They've had great success so far with few meaningful repercussions. When you find organized political astroturfing online (especially with an apparent aim to sow discord), Russia now has to be on the list of suspects even before there's any specific evidence tying it to Russia. The prior probability of Russian involvement is high enough that almost any shred of specific evidence is enough to put them near the top of the suspect list.
- 3fe9a03ccd14ca5 7y ago
  You should read the followup to all of the “meddling” uncover by the special counsel in the last year. I think you may be surprised! I’m still surprised that Bloomberg spent $1.2 billion on his campaign and barely scraped a delegate. But Russia spends a few thousand on facebook ads and boom!
  - wtallis 7y ago
    > I think you may be surprised! This kind of vague aspersion is inappropriate. If you have a point, make it.

captncraig 7y ago

While the current administration is turning a blind eye and I wish they wouldn't, the Russian connection here was only discovered after many layers of digging, and is still just conjecture. After a few more iterations, they will learn how to close the gaps and be more and more untraceable. I don't know how it is possible to combat that.

nexuist 7y ago

Assuming this is all true, how do you even tackle something like this while preserving the concept of freedom? If the government goes after groups of people for "meddling in elections" - well, that's very vague, isn't it? Maybe most people don't have a problem with the FBI looking into domain registrations, cross-checking credit card payments, obtaining warrants for Google Analytics / Namecheap / etc...but investigating random web developers for alleged "ties to Russia" sounds eerily similar to McCarthyism.

karatestomp 7y ago
I’m beginning to think a free, international Internet isn’t compatible with democracy. The medium is the message and the message of the Internet might end up being autocracy and hyper-effective propaganda and disinformation. I’m not sure it practically can live up to what we hoped it would be—some kind of liberating, enlightening force. It may just not be that, and it may be that no amount of tinkering will fix it.
- xxpor 7y ago
  An uneducated populace isn't compatible with democracy. This is just yet another manifestation of that.
- bilbo0s 7y ago
  I don't think there will be a free, international internet much longer. Between the money that can be made by local internet companies and the dangers to the incumbent power structures, I'm sure we'll start seeing more and more china-like internet setups in the future.
jorblumesea 7y ago
The intelligence community knows the Russian actors are and where they are hitting from, for the most part. The issue is getting the political and business leadership to take it seriously and do something about it. The current administration has not taken the problem as seriously as it is for a wide variety of internal and political reasons. Neither has Facebook done much about limiting or policing political ads. The problem space is pretty clear, getting actors in the space to do something about it...

seppin 7y ago

The domestic supply of disinformation has always outpaced the foreign supply. That doesn't mean they both don't exist and can and do have an affect.

jshier 7y ago

That's simple: we're not "through" anything until those responsible are out of power. Until they are they'll continue to allow and support, publicly and privately, any and all meddling that benefits them. We'll see what "America's" response is this November.

Natsu 7y ago

> What I cannot believe is how the USA still allows this Mueller's prosecutors dropped their prosecution when the Russian company charged sent lawyers to court because, among other things, they did not want to have to present their evidence in court.

oldsklgdfth 7y ago

I am be very cynical, but as long as there is power to consolidate there will be a struggle for it. This is a constant game being played on the populace. Not from Russia to the US. From those seeking to control to the controlled. > openness, freedom, independence are just tools tools are only are good as the user. I had a friend in high school that lost 2 fingers to a tablesaw. I don't anyone thought it was used against him.

rustamm 7y ago

What I don't understand is what is the point blaming other forces/countries for exploiting something that is so easily exploitable. If you have a wide-open security holes in your system they will be exploited by everyone who can potentially benefit from this. Other than Russia/China/<Villain of the week> there are many other actors who have incentives to meddle in the society, e.g. - The US government - Large Businesses Example from the article: "Reopenmississippi.com was registered on April 16 to In Pursuit of LLC, an Arlington, Va.-based conservative group with a number of former employees who currently work at the White House or in cabinet agencies (link: https://projects.propublica.org/trump-town/organizations/in-pursuit-of-llc https://projects.propublica.org/trump-town/organizations/in-...). A 2016 story from USA Today says In Pursuit Of LLC is a for-profit communications agency launched by billionaire industrialist Charles Koch." - T-shirt sellers? "A number of other sites — such as reopennc.com — seem to exist merely to sell t-shirts, decals and yard signs with such slogans as “Know Your Rights,” “Live Free or Die,” and “Facts not Fear.” WHOIS records show the same Florida resident who registered this North Carolina site also registered one for New York — reopenny.com — just a few minutes later." At this point it is so easy to anonymously set up these websites and protest groups that a bored high-school student can do it. Instead of putting blame on this or that country, efforts should be focused on creating some kind of a online reputation system so that any content posted would contain a signature that ties it to the author. If the signature is missing then you know the source is likely untrustworthy. Pros: no need for censorship. anyone can still post anything online. Cons: users need to be educated about this feature. It has to be supported by major browsers as a first-party component. Otherwise we see more ridiculous initiatives like this from GitLab where they ban hiring engineers from Russia on certain positions: "WIP: Support Engineer Job family country-of-residence block" (https://gitlab.com/gitlab-com/www-gitlab-com/issues/5555 https://gitlab.com/gitlab-com/www-gitlab-com/issues/5555). EDIT: fixed typos

toast0 7y ago
> WHOIS records show the same Florida resident who registered this North Carolina site also registered one for New York — reopenny.com — just a few minutes later." At this point it is so easy to anonymously set up these websites and protest groups that a bored high-school student can do it. Instead of putting blame on this or that country, efforts should be focused on creating some kind of a online reputation system so that any content posted would contain a signature that ties it to the author. The person selling shirts isn't doing it anonymously if whois records reflect that person's ownership of sites targeting different states. I don't see how a reputation system helps much, if Florida man hits a chord with people, his site is going to have high reputation, regardless of any facts or not. Unless you're suggesting a centralized arbiter of truthiness, but that has myriad problems too. Unfortunately, I don't think people are going to realize trusting random people until they experience the poor results for themselves. This is a slow process.

imglorp 7y ago

There's some news about that. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/18/russian-media-spreading-covid-19-disinformation https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/18/russian-media-...

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

empath75 7y ago

I actually think that it wasn’t so much the fact of Russian interference, the us does similar things all over the world — it was that a domestic political party collaborated with them.

yesenadam 7y ago

>USA's most important characteristics: openness, freedom, independence Another is meddling in the politics of other countries. The list is amazing. Not to mention actually invading, bombing etc. The first google result "US Interfered in Elections of at Least 85 Countries Worldwide Since 1945" https://www.globalresearch.ca/us-interfered-in-elections-of-at-least-85-countries-worldwide-since-1945/5601481 https://www.globalresearch.ca/us-interfered-in-elections-of-...

anonu 7y ago
Sure... you can go on for days about how the US meddles in foreign affairs. Thats a bigger debate and question about the US position in the world, etc.. etc... But your general point can be classified as "what aboutism", which is really just a distraction from the core question...
- yesenadam 7y ago
  Student in playground: Hey, they just hit me! That's outrageous! They just envy my amazing openness, freedom and independence. Teacher: But I was watching, and I saw you hit 85 other students in the playground today! Student: Sure...you can go on for days about that. Thats a bigger debate and question about my position in the school, etc.. etc... But your general point can be classified as "what aboutism", which is really just a distraction from the core question...