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> Use a charging network; there are plenty (and there's far more investment in expanding them than hydrogen). Many malls and grocery stores have chargers in the

by Hypx 6y ago

> Use a charging network; there are plenty (and there's far more investment in expanding them than hydrogen). Many malls and grocery stores have chargers in their parking lots reserved for EVs; you can charge while you shop. This really kills the convenience argument though. If you must recharge using public stations, it is much less convenient that hydrogen stations that can do it in 5 minutes. > Saved you the Google search: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell#In_practice https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell#In_practice The study was conducted back in 2007, a time where fuel cell cars basically didn’t exist yet. I suppose this does qualify as “existing,” but it is not real world and is clearly wrong as of today. Fuel cell cars today are at 60% regardless. This is also hard to dispute, since a 35% efficient fuel cell car cannot approach 68MPGe. So it is an outdated study at best. > Sure, as an alternative at grid scale (which is what the link you posted references). But BEVs are more efficient, and simpler, for consumer cars. We already have an electrical grid. Even just transporting the hydrogen from the generator to the theoretical thousands of refueling stations would be inefficient and wasteful. It costs very little to pipeline hydrogen around. This is not a problem if we have plenty of cheap hydrogen to go around. > Less than 15% of America's energy comes from renewable sources. It is much higher in states that invested in renewable energy. California is at 30% for instance. It’s even higher in some countries in Europe. What we’re finding is that power swings from >80% to less than 20% on a regular basis. This problem is addressed here: https://www.governing.com/next/Americas-Largest-Municipal-Utility-Invests-from-Coal-to-Hydrogen-Power.html https://www.governing.com/next/Americas-Largest-Municipal-Ut...

reissbaker 6y ago
> The study was conducted back in 2007, a time where fuel cell cars basically didn’t exist yet. I suppose this does qualify as “existing,” but it is not real world and is clearly wrong as of today. The first study in the linked article was conducted in 2010. FWIW, Honda's study (which is the only one I can find a source for that claims 60% tank-to-wheel) was conducted in 2008. > Fuel cell cars today are at 60% regardless. Source? Ideally to an independent, real-world study. The EPA MPGe ratings have strongly disagreed with you that hydrogen is comparable to BEVs, as have the studies I've linked, so I'm curious where this 60% real-world claim is coming from. > This is also hard to dispute, since a 35% efficient fuel cell car cannot approach 68MPGe. EVs are generally able to get up to 77% efficiency in real-world usage, per the link I posted above. The Tesla Model 3, the most-efficient sedan in 2020 according to the US Dept of Energy [1], gets 141 MPGe. If we assume the Model 3 is 77% efficient, that leaves the Honda Clarity Fuel Cell (which is rated at 68 MPGe) at approx 37% efficient, since MPGe is strictly a measure of average distance traveled per equivalent unit of energy used [2]. Better than pure gasoline, sure, but it's still pretty far from a BEV. Even hybrids get decently close to hydrogen; the Prius, for example, gets 56 MPG. BEVs absolutely smoke both in terms of efficiency. 1: https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/topten.jsp https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/topten.jsp 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_per_gallon_gasoline_equivalent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_per_gallon_gasoline_equi...
- Hypx 6y ago
  > The first study in the linked article was conducted in 2010. The first study states "greater than 45%." This is pure misdirection here. > Source? Ideally to an independent, real-world study. There are vast resources available [1]. Evidence suggests it is around 60% at the stack, and ~55% at the system level [2]. > EVs are generally able to get up to 77% efficiency in real-world usage, per the link I posted above. The Tesla Model 3, the most-efficient sedan in 2020 according to the US Dept of Energy [1], gets 141 MPGe. That's wells-to-wheels figure. You're comparing very different figures. Also, that 141 MPGe figure is just them gaming the fuel economy test [3]. It is not showing up in real world testing. Using basic physics (which assumes BEVs are 95% at the wheels vs 55% for FCEVs), the peak difference could only be 72%. > Even hybrids get decently close to hydrogen; the Prius, for example, gets 56 MPG. The Prius is a much smaller car than the Clarity. Not really a fair comparison. 1. https://www.nrel.gov/hydrogen/fuel-cell-vehicle-evaluation.html https://www.nrel.gov/hydrogen/fuel-cell-vehicle-evaluation.h... 2. https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy19osti/73011.pdf https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy19osti/73011.pdf 3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynX21N4H8H0&feature=emb_title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynX21N4H8H0&feature=emb_titl...

by Hypx 6y ago

reissbaker 6y ago

> The study was conducted back in 2007, a time where fuel cell cars basically didn’t exist yet. I suppose this does qualify as “existing,” but it is not real world and is clearly wrong as of today. The first study in the linked article was conducted in 2010. FWIW, Honda's study (which is the only one I can find a source for that claims 60% tank-to-wheel) was conducted in 2008. > Fuel cell cars today are at 60% regardless. Source? Ideally to an independent, real-world study. The EPA MPGe ratings have strongly disagreed with you that hydrogen is comparable to BEVs, as have the studies I've linked, so I'm curious where this 60% real-world claim is coming from. > This is also hard to dispute, since a 35% efficient fuel cell car cannot approach 68MPGe. EVs are generally able to get up to 77% efficiency in real-world usage, per the link I posted above. The Tesla Model 3, the most-efficient sedan in 2020 according to the US Dept of Energy [1], gets 141 MPGe. If we assume the Model 3 is 77% efficient, that leaves the Honda Clarity Fuel Cell (which is rated at 68 MPGe) at approx 37% efficient, since MPGe is strictly a measure of average distance traveled per equivalent unit of energy used [2]. Better than pure gasoline, sure, but it's still pretty far from a BEV. Even hybrids get decently close to hydrogen; the Prius, for example, gets 56 MPG. BEVs absolutely smoke both in terms of efficiency. 1: https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/topten.jsp https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/topten.jsp 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_per_gallon_gasoline_equivalent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_per_gallon_gasoline_equi...

Hypx 6y ago
> The first study in the linked article was conducted in 2010. The first study states "greater than 45%." This is pure misdirection here. > Source? Ideally to an independent, real-world study. There are vast resources available [1]. Evidence suggests it is around 60% at the stack, and ~55% at the system level [2]. > EVs are generally able to get up to 77% efficiency in real-world usage, per the link I posted above. The Tesla Model 3, the most-efficient sedan in 2020 according to the US Dept of Energy [1], gets 141 MPGe. That's wells-to-wheels figure. You're comparing very different figures. Also, that 141 MPGe figure is just them gaming the fuel economy test [3]. It is not showing up in real world testing. Using basic physics (which assumes BEVs are 95% at the wheels vs 55% for FCEVs), the peak difference could only be 72%. > Even hybrids get decently close to hydrogen; the Prius, for example, gets 56 MPG. The Prius is a much smaller car than the Clarity. Not really a fair comparison. 1. https://www.nrel.gov/hydrogen/fuel-cell-vehicle-evaluation.html https://www.nrel.gov/hydrogen/fuel-cell-vehicle-evaluation.h... 2. https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy19osti/73011.pdf https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy19osti/73011.pdf 3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynX21N4H8H0&feature=emb_title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynX21N4H8H0&feature=emb_titl...