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No, you mis-read. chaorace said that Windows EXEs running in Proton gives them better results than running the Linux binary that the game developer ships ("nati

No, you mis-read. chaorace said that Windows EXEs running in Proton gives them better results than running the Linux binary that the game developer ships ("native"). AnIdiotOnTheNet stated that Windows APIs are more stable and better documented than Linux APIs. As a long-time Linux dev (see my profile), I have also found this to be true. Linux userland APIs are unstable and change all the time. Some transitions that come to mind that have affected me personally: ALSA->pulse; libudev->libudev2->systemd; gstreamer 0.10->1.0. All of those changes required modifications to my software, and the backwards-compat tools that are provided are buggy and insufficient. Meanwhile, you can still write and run winmm[1] applications on Windows 10, and they will work in almost all cases. It's simply the case that the win32 API is more stable than Linux userland APIs, so it's entirely plausible that games will run better in Wine, which shares that stable ABI, than they will on Linux, especially as time goes on and Linux userland shifts yet again. [1] winmm dates to the Windows 3.x days!

JoeAltmaier 7y ago
I've been suspicious of user-led development (e.g. open source), expecially Linux. Its popular to put in new features; less so to test, endure backward compatibility, control user experience. So it doesn't get done (much) in Linux. My cohort have a phrase they attribute to me: Linux is not ready until they get the 'Have Disk' dialog.
- Karunamon 7y ago
  What dialog is that?
  - recursive 7y ago
    Perhaps this one? https://www.dell.com/support/article/en-us/sln286269/how-to-install-or-re-install-a-printer-on-windows-7-using-a-usb-connection?lang=en https://www.dell.com/support/article/en-us/sln286269/how-to-... About a third of the way down.
- coldpie 7y ago
  Eh, I don't agree. Linux has been "ready" for my usecase for more than a decade. There's pros and cons to each certainly, but I find Linux much more pleasant to use than Windows, and I like actually being in control of and able to modify the software I run. Until I can do that, Windows is not ready for me :)
  - JoeAltmaier 7y ago
    Right. But the point is the vast, vast (non-HNer) use case is not in favor of Linux. For every 1 Linux-on-the-desktop person, there are what, 1M others?
    - coldpie 7y ago
      I don't know if API stability is a barrier to adoption or not, but I was just explaining my experience with both platforms. For me, I don't much care how many people use Linux; I just want to use my computer how I like to, and Linux suits my needs best.
    - resplin 7y ago
      I hope that I never see the "Have disk" button again. The Linux way of distributing hardware drivers is so much easier. As for usage, linux on the desktop is between .5% and 2% market share. And there reason to suspect that Linux usage is undercounted. https://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx https://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share... https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/ https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/268237/global-market-share-held-by-operating-systems-since-2009/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/268237/global-market-sha... https://hostingtribunal.com/blog/operating-systems-market-share/ https://hostingtribunal.com/blog/operating-systems-market-sh...
      - AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
        > The Linux way of distributing hardware drivers is so much easier. You mean having to recompile them whenever there's a new kernel because the developers consider a stable driver ABI to be abhorrent?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
jfkebwjsbx 7y ago
For software like games, all that pain is abstracted away by SDL. No need to deal with userspace libraries! And, of course, the syscall layer is stable in Linux, so no issues there either. However, companies claim Linux is still a pain for other reasons, so I guess it is mostly about testing/support cost and perhaps OpenGL driver issues?
account42 7y ago
The audio subsystem changes definitely could have been done better. Ideally /dev/dsp should have been extended like has been done on the BSDs instead of inventing completely new interfaces. That said, doesn't libasound still work with pulse? gstreamer on the other hand is something you can just as easily ship yourself. I wouldn't consider that a Linux userland API as much as a random library that is present on many Linux system just like some crap you'd find in system32. I'm less familiar about the API/ABI changes in the libudev transition - is there anything there that broke API compatibility. The "lower level" userland libraries (glibc, libGL, libX11) tend to be pretty good at maintaining backwards compat. Well, except for Mesa pulling in the C++ standard library which can be a real problem when older games also dynamically link (incompatible) versions.

JoeAltmaier 7y ago

I've been suspicious of user-led development (e.g. open source), expecially Linux. Its popular to put in new features; less so to test, endure backward compatibility, control user experience. So it doesn't get done (much) in Linux. My cohort have a phrase they attribute to me: Linux is not ready until they get the 'Have Disk' dialog.

Karunamon 7y ago
What dialog is that?
- recursive 7y ago
  Perhaps this one? https://www.dell.com/support/article/en-us/sln286269/how-to-install-or-re-install-a-printer-on-windows-7-using-a-usb-connection?lang=en https://www.dell.com/support/article/en-us/sln286269/how-to-... About a third of the way down.
coldpie 7y ago
Eh, I don't agree. Linux has been "ready" for my usecase for more than a decade. There's pros and cons to each certainly, but I find Linux much more pleasant to use than Windows, and I like actually being in control of and able to modify the software I run. Until I can do that, Windows is not ready for me :)
- JoeAltmaier 7y ago
  Right. But the point is the vast, vast (non-HNer) use case is not in favor of Linux. For every 1 Linux-on-the-desktop person, there are what, 1M others?
  - coldpie 7y ago
    I don't know if API stability is a barrier to adoption or not, but I was just explaining my experience with both platforms. For me, I don't much care how many people use Linux; I just want to use my computer how I like to, and Linux suits my needs best.
  - resplin 7y ago
    I hope that I never see the "Have disk" button again. The Linux way of distributing hardware drivers is so much easier. As for usage, linux on the desktop is between .5% and 2% market share. And there reason to suspect that Linux usage is undercounted. https://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx https://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share... https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/ https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/268237/global-market-share-held-by-operating-systems-since-2009/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/268237/global-market-sha... https://hostingtribunal.com/blog/operating-systems-market-share/ https://hostingtribunal.com/blog/operating-systems-market-sh...
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
      > The Linux way of distributing hardware drivers is so much easier. You mean having to recompile them whenever there's a new kernel because the developers consider a stable driver ABI to be abhorrent?
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

jfkebwjsbx 7y ago

For software like games, all that pain is abstracted away by SDL. No need to deal with userspace libraries! And, of course, the syscall layer is stable in Linux, so no issues there either. However, companies claim Linux is still a pain for other reasons, so I guess it is mostly about testing/support cost and perhaps OpenGL driver issues?

account42 7y ago

The audio subsystem changes definitely could have been done better. Ideally /dev/dsp should have been extended like has been done on the BSDs instead of inventing completely new interfaces. That said, doesn't libasound still work with pulse? gstreamer on the other hand is something you can just as easily ship yourself. I wouldn't consider that a Linux userland API as much as a random library that is present on many Linux system just like some crap you'd find in system32. I'm less familiar about the API/ABI changes in the libudev transition - is there anything there that broke API compatibility. The "lower level" userland libraries (glibc, libGL, libX11) tend to be pretty good at maintaining backwards compat. Well, except for Mesa pulling in the C++ standard library which can be a real problem when older games also dynamically link (incompatible) versions.