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My wife and I have gone on 20+ cruises since selling our own small cruising sailboat 25 years ago. We have decided “never again.” The thing that has put us off

My wife and I have gone on 20+ cruises since selling our own small cruising sailboat 25 years ago. We have decided “never again.” The thing that has put us off the last few cruises is realizing how workers on the ships are treated. Twenty years ago, it seemed to us that we would see off duty room stewards and other crew going ashore with their friends, and getting some down time. I know this is subjective, but over time, it seems like giving workers much needed down time stopped happening. Then fast forward to the present time, my wife and I just don’t want to take a chance getting on a ship because the current new corona virus is so much worse than the Nora virus, which used to be what you worried about on ships. The very real bummer though is this: there are many hundreds of small ports around the world where people rely on extra income from ships disgorging passengers who spend money. A young engineer in Yalta Ukraine told me that he augmented his income as a scientist from tourist related activities, and it was important income for him. Yes, the cruise industry should go away, but there will be collateral damage.

schnevets 7y ago
To me modern cruises are one of the most egregious cases of late-stage capitalism: The original idea is sound: visit multiple destinations on a mobile hotel! The drive for value is acceptable: make the mobile hotel as fun as the destination with decent restaurants and entertainment But the inevitable result is catastrophic: increasingly gigantic ships that cram customers and attractions in, cost-cutting measures that harm the environment, exploitation of port towns
- eru 7y ago
  Why do you think cruise ships are catastrophic? Before the virus hit, they seemed quite popular with paying customers and people were signing up to work for them voluntarily. You might not like it, but that doesn't make the business catastrophic. (I'm not really in the market for a cruise either.) (The main way you could help cruise ship employees would be to give them better outside options. Eg by opening up migration to rich countries more. Or by otherwise improving the economy of the places they hail from.)
lonelappde 7y ago
25 years is a long time to not notice the plain truth. Here's an article from 2002 that I found in a 1minute Google search https://waronwant.org/resources/sweatships https://waronwant.org/resources/sweatships
- vlunkr 7y ago
  Just because there are articles on the internet doesn't make it a plain truth. I don't make a habit of searching for what the working conditions are for every person I interact with.
  - stallmanite 7y ago
    I do. It’s a good way to determine who to do business with if you have ethics.
    - falcor84 7y ago
      "if you have ethics" - what does that mean?! Does that mean to have the same view on ethics as you do?
      - stallmanite 7y ago
        As stated in my replies elsewhere it was a poorly worded comment. I think it’s not outrageous to suggest that if you care about something e.g. how well companies you do business with treat their employees then it makes sense to do cursory research about that. I don’t think that’s smug or outrageous. Mentioning the word ethics was a mistake.
    - menacingly 7y ago
      do you find being unbearably smug particularly ethical?
      - bryanrasmussen 7y ago
        The user name is making me think - maybe? Although also making me think googling working conditions etc. might not happen as much as implied.
BurningCycles 7y ago
>The thing that has put us off the last few cruises is realizing how workers on the ships are treated. I read somewhere that the main reason these cruise ships, including those owned by well known US companies like Disney, won't register their ships under the American flag is so that they can avoid US labor laws, I don't know if this is true but it sadly wouldn't surprise me.
- yesbabyyes 7y ago
  Not only cruising ships, but many (most likely, most) commercial vessels are registered under a so called convenience flag. Usually Panama or Liberia.
  - blackandblue 7y ago
    true that. not just cruises. nor just leisure and touristic activities either. tons of jobs have similar working conditions. and tbh, i am not sure avoiding or banning these activities is the solution. i mean, we are not throwing our smartphones away yet, are we?
    - dehrmann 7y ago
      > tons of jobs have similar working conditions I get the impression commercial air travel isn't that bad, but it's not great. Cruse ships get away with it by using workers from developing countries. Airlines pitch it as "travel the world" and a lifestyle, so there are a lot of people who want the job. It's like software in the video game industry.
- abrowne 7y ago
  I think it's to avoid US laws generally, but labor law is surely a big part of that.
- nabla9 7y ago
  It's true. You could still use cheap foreign labor and provide decent working conditions under flag of convenience, but it's the fierce competition that really forbids it. These massive cruise ships have become part of mass tourism. People look at the price first. If the price is 5-10% above competition without better service, it does not work as a business. It's the non-caring consumers that enable consistent bad treatment of workers in the large scale. People like OP who stop are the only force besides enforcing tighter labor laws in the blue waters that can fix this. Then there are billionaires in their yachts treating cheap labour as animals just because. That's just cruelty for fun.
scarface74 7y ago
Cozumel’s entire economy is based on cruise ships docking.
groby_b 7y ago
It's not subjective. Having worked on a cruise ship 25 years ago: It was always somewhat exploitative, but it's gotten much worse over the years. Yes, you could use your one day off a week to go ashore. More importantly, you weren't yet asked to do two jobs at the same time. By now, a lot of cruise workers work 12-16 hours a day. Staffing/passenger has decreased. That one day "to go ashore" often goes to just sleeping for once, doing laundry, and various mandatory all-hands drills. So, yes, down time is vanishing. And the pay hasn't improved significantly. But it's still a field that allows especially people from low-income countries to make more money than in their home country, so that too will fall under collateral damage.
- aeternum 7y ago
  >allows especially people from low-income countries to make more money than in their home country It seems strange to want to eliminate someone else's best employment opportunity simply because it isn't up to your standards. If you were to take your business to another cruise line that provides workers better working conditions, I could see that, but is not going on cruises entirely really the best way to improve things?
  - eru 7y ago
    If groby_b were arguing for bans on cruise ships, I could see your objection. But they are perfectly free to spend their own money in different ways. Perhaps they would use the money saved on cruises instead to buy more cheap goods from China and Bangladesh? Those factory workers benefit from demand for their wares, too.
  - chabes 7y ago
    These jobs don’t have to be eliminated. They can be improved.
    - JAlexoid 7y ago
      This mass commercial cruising needs to go the way of the dinosaurs. It's a military style mandatory entertainment camp with a lot of retail, and very little space. They are incredibly deceptive and exist solely to extract money from you (I'm talking about Carnival here)
weaksauce 7y ago
The John Oliver about the cruise ship industry shows a bit on how sick the industry is.
owl57 7y ago
I agree with what you are saying, but want to clarify the example a bit. Yalta is in fact in Crimea, I believe most people there would ask you to not call their land part of Ukraine (note: this doesn't mean I believe that annexation was a good idea). They probably don't have cruise ships there, most tourists are from Ukraine and Russia. If Russians won't be able to go to Turkey this summer (almost sure) but will be allowed to go to Crimea (we'll see how that goes…), this major part of Crimean economy might be actually in better shape than before.

schnevets 7y ago

To me modern cruises are one of the most egregious cases of late-stage capitalism: The original idea is sound: visit multiple destinations on a mobile hotel! The drive for value is acceptable: make the mobile hotel as fun as the destination with decent restaurants and entertainment But the inevitable result is catastrophic: increasingly gigantic ships that cram customers and attractions in, cost-cutting measures that harm the environment, exploitation of port towns

eru 7y ago
Why do you think cruise ships are catastrophic? Before the virus hit, they seemed quite popular with paying customers and people were signing up to work for them voluntarily. You might not like it, but that doesn't make the business catastrophic. (I'm not really in the market for a cruise either.) (The main way you could help cruise ship employees would be to give them better outside options. Eg by opening up migration to rich countries more. Or by otherwise improving the economy of the places they hail from.)

lonelappde 7y ago

25 years is a long time to not notice the plain truth. Here's an article from 2002 that I found in a 1minute Google search https://waronwant.org/resources/sweatships https://waronwant.org/resources/sweatships

vlunkr 7y ago
Just because there are articles on the internet doesn't make it a plain truth. I don't make a habit of searching for what the working conditions are for every person I interact with.
- stallmanite 7y ago
  I do. It’s a good way to determine who to do business with if you have ethics.
  - falcor84 7y ago
    "if you have ethics" - what does that mean?! Does that mean to have the same view on ethics as you do?
    - stallmanite 7y ago
      As stated in my replies elsewhere it was a poorly worded comment. I think it’s not outrageous to suggest that if you care about something e.g. how well companies you do business with treat their employees then it makes sense to do cursory research about that. I don’t think that’s smug or outrageous. Mentioning the word ethics was a mistake.
  - menacingly 7y ago
    do you find being unbearably smug particularly ethical?
    - bryanrasmussen 7y ago
      The user name is making me think - maybe? Although also making me think googling working conditions etc. might not happen as much as implied.

BurningCycles 7y ago

>The thing that has put us off the last few cruises is realizing how workers on the ships are treated. I read somewhere that the main reason these cruise ships, including those owned by well known US companies like Disney, won't register their ships under the American flag is so that they can avoid US labor laws, I don't know if this is true but it sadly wouldn't surprise me.

yesbabyyes 7y ago
Not only cruising ships, but many (most likely, most) commercial vessels are registered under a so called convenience flag. Usually Panama or Liberia.
- blackandblue 7y ago
  true that. not just cruises. nor just leisure and touristic activities either. tons of jobs have similar working conditions. and tbh, i am not sure avoiding or banning these activities is the solution. i mean, we are not throwing our smartphones away yet, are we?
  - dehrmann 7y ago
    > tons of jobs have similar working conditions I get the impression commercial air travel isn't that bad, but it's not great. Cruse ships get away with it by using workers from developing countries. Airlines pitch it as "travel the world" and a lifestyle, so there are a lot of people who want the job. It's like software in the video game industry.
abrowne 7y ago
I think it's to avoid US laws generally, but labor law is surely a big part of that.
nabla9 7y ago
It's true. You could still use cheap foreign labor and provide decent working conditions under flag of convenience, but it's the fierce competition that really forbids it. These massive cruise ships have become part of mass tourism. People look at the price first. If the price is 5-10% above competition without better service, it does not work as a business. It's the non-caring consumers that enable consistent bad treatment of workers in the large scale. People like OP who stop are the only force besides enforcing tighter labor laws in the blue waters that can fix this. Then there are billionaires in their yachts treating cheap labour as animals just because. That's just cruelty for fun.

scarface74 7y ago

Cozumel’s entire economy is based on cruise ships docking.

groby_b 7y ago

It's not subjective. Having worked on a cruise ship 25 years ago: It was always somewhat exploitative, but it's gotten much worse over the years. Yes, you could use your one day off a week to go ashore. More importantly, you weren't yet asked to do two jobs at the same time. By now, a lot of cruise workers work 12-16 hours a day. Staffing/passenger has decreased. That one day "to go ashore" often goes to just sleeping for once, doing laundry, and various mandatory all-hands drills. So, yes, down time is vanishing. And the pay hasn't improved significantly. But it's still a field that allows especially people from low-income countries to make more money than in their home country, so that too will fall under collateral damage.

aeternum 7y ago
>allows especially people from low-income countries to make more money than in their home country It seems strange to want to eliminate someone else's best employment opportunity simply because it isn't up to your standards. If you were to take your business to another cruise line that provides workers better working conditions, I could see that, but is not going on cruises entirely really the best way to improve things?
- eru 7y ago
  If groby_b were arguing for bans on cruise ships, I could see your objection. But they are perfectly free to spend their own money in different ways. Perhaps they would use the money saved on cruises instead to buy more cheap goods from China and Bangladesh? Those factory workers benefit from demand for their wares, too.
- chabes 7y ago
  These jobs don’t have to be eliminated. They can be improved.
  - JAlexoid 7y ago
    This mass commercial cruising needs to go the way of the dinosaurs. It's a military style mandatory entertainment camp with a lot of retail, and very little space. They are incredibly deceptive and exist solely to extract money from you (I'm talking about Carnival here)

weaksauce 7y ago

The John Oliver about the cruise ship industry shows a bit on how sick the industry is.

owl57 7y ago

I agree with what you are saying, but want to clarify the example a bit. Yalta is in fact in Crimea, I believe most people there would ask you to not call their land part of Ukraine (note: this doesn't mean I believe that annexation was a good idea). They probably don't have cruise ships there, most tourists are from Ukraine and Russia. If Russians won't be able to go to Turkey this summer (almost sure) but will be allowed to go to Crimea (we'll see how that goes…), this major part of Crimean economy might be actually in better shape than before.