11 ms·

Proton has been fantastic for me, it finally gave me what I needed to reclaim my Windows partition and go full-on Arch! In some cases, running the Windows versi

Proton has been fantastic for me, it finally gave me what I needed to reclaim my Windows partition and go full-on Arch! In some cases, running the Windows version inside Proton has actually worked out better for me than the native port (Dead Cells, for example. The native port crashes the Steam overlay and lacks Steam Controller support, but running the Windows version in Proton is seamless) I highly encourage you guys to check out the tech making this possible: DXVK. It's incredible what you can do with these lower level APIs. I'm not sure if this is the right word, but "meta shader pipelines" like this are absolutely the way of the future in emulation. See also: Dolphin Ubershaders. Ubershaders: https://dolphin-emu.org/blog/2017/07/30/ubershaders/ https://dolphin-emu.org/blog/2017/07/30/ubershaders/

ekianjo 6y ago
DXVK also works on Windows, to translate DX11 calls to Vulkan and pipe them thru the graphics card's own Vulkan driver. Video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVYprONeDtY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVYprONeDtY
AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
> In some cases, running the Windows version inside Proton has actually worked out better for me than the native port I, for one, am not surprised. Windows userland APIs are more stable, consistent, and well documented than their Linux equivalents.
- elteto 6y ago
  The implication from the comment was that Wine is better at running old Windows games than Windows itself. I’m not sure where this Linux vs. Windows comparison is coming from.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
    I don't believe that is correct. > (Dead Cells, for example. The native port crashes the Steam overlay and lacks Steam Controller support, but running the Windows version in Proton is seamless) Suggests the comment is about running the Windows version under Proton being a better experience than running the native Linux version.
    - dx87 6y ago
      Both are correct. Some native ports run better under Proton because the port sucks, but I recently saw a video where they compared Doom Eternal with Proton vs running native on Windows, and the Proton version ran better than the Windows version running natively. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-XnlUMfkjM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-XnlUMfkjM
      - mikepurvis 6y ago
        It would be interesting to have some analysis digging into potential causes for this result. As someone who was recently surprised at how much impact a CPU upgrade (G3258 -> 4570 on the same LGA 1150 motherboard [1]) had on overall performance even in older indie titles where I wouldn't have expected it to matter much, I would be curious to look at what background services are running, what their cpu/memory footprint is, and how well the OS handles scheduling them. Even without the obvious pigs like virus scanner, printer utility, launchers for other storefronts, various chrome-embeds like Slack and Spotify, I wouldn't be surprised if the Linux desktop does a better job of this. [1]: https://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Pentium-G3258-vs-Intel-Core-i5-4570/2434vs2770 https://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Pentium-G3258-vs...
        dx87 6y ago
        The most common theory is that it's the Denuvo anti-piracy software. It's known to cause performance drops on Windows, and it often has to be bypassed or disabled in Linux games.
    - elteto 6y ago
      I see now. I stand corrected.
  - chaorace 6y ago
    Ah, the parent comment is actually correct here. Dead Cells is a modern release with a released Linux port. Unfortunately, it isn't interacting correctly with the Steam overlay API and the issues haven't been fixed for months. Running the Windows version via Proton, ironically, is a more stable experience for my use-case.
  - coldpie 6y ago
    No, you mis-read. chaorace said that Windows EXEs running in Proton gives them better results than running the Linux binary that the game developer ships ("native"). AnIdiotOnTheNet stated that Windows APIs are more stable and better documented than Linux APIs. As a long-time Linux dev (see my profile), I have also found this to be true. Linux userland APIs are unstable and change all the time. Some transitions that come to mind that have affected me personally: ALSA->pulse; libudev->libudev2->systemd; gstreamer 0.10->1.0. All of those changes required modifications to my software, and the backwards-compat tools that are provided are buggy and insufficient. Meanwhile, you can still write and run winmm[1] applications on Windows 10, and they will work in almost all cases. It's simply the case that the win32 API is more stable than Linux userland APIs, so it's entirely plausible that games will run better in Wine, which shares that stable ABI, than they will on Linux, especially as time goes on and Linux userland shifts yet again. [1] winmm dates to the Windows 3.x days!
    - JoeAltmaier 6y ago
      I've been suspicious of user-led development (e.g. open source), expecially Linux. Its popular to put in new features; less so to test, endure backward compatibility, control user experience. So it doesn't get done (much) in Linux. My cohort have a phrase they attribute to me: Linux is not ready until they get the 'Have Disk' dialog.
      - Karunamon 6y ago
        What dialog is that?
        recursive 6y ago
        Perhaps this one? https://www.dell.com/support/article/en-us/sln286269/how-to-install-or-re-install-a-printer-on-windows-7-using-a-usb-connection?lang=en https://www.dell.com/support/article/en-us/sln286269/how-to-... About a third of the way down.
      - coldpie 6y ago
        Eh, I don't agree. Linux has been "ready" for my usecase for more than a decade. There's pros and cons to each certainly, but I find Linux much more pleasant to use than Windows, and I like actually being in control of and able to modify the software I run. Until I can do that, Windows is not ready for me :)
- yesco 6y ago
  Keep in mind most "native" ports are just crappy, but official, wrappers that just do what proton does but worse. This is why you will see a lot of native ports perform worse, they weren't really native in the first place.
  - coldpie 6y ago
    I'm gonna blow your mind: the word "native" doesn't actually mean anything in this context. The only thing that matters is official support from the developer, regardless of the technology used.
    - egeozcan 6y ago
      It's supposed to mean no system call translation but alas, you're right, it usually doesn't.
    - yesco 6y ago
      I was explaining how an official port could perform worse than an unofficial one, so yes "native" would absolutely mean something in this context. It's commonly understood that using the native system interfaces would usually be faster than using a compatibility layer. > The only thing that matters is official support from the developer, regardless of the technology used. The only thing that matters for what? I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.
choward 6y ago
How so you know if someone is an arch user? > I needed to reclaim my Windows partition and go full-on Arch! They tell you.
- chaorace 6y ago
  I considered making this joke myself lol. In reality, I actually just use Manjaro, but I enjoy playing into the stereotype :)
cferr 6y ago
Ditto here. My wife's PC, for example, is now running OpenSUSE full time. She used to dual boot with Windows 10, primarily for games, but she would spend most of her computing time using Windows just because of the game inconvenience. Now pretty much everything she plays 'just works' with Proton, and she has no need for Windows.
benibela 6y ago
I wasted a lot of time with DXVK when I tried to play Tomb Raider 4. WineHQ said you need DXVK when you want proper shadowing, but I could not get it to work. Finally, it turned out my laptop is probably too old for DXVK (i7-4600U). But Wine 5 can run the game without DXVK. I just needed to install it from outside the distro repo, since the distro only had wine 4
- account42 6y ago
  Well yeah, the VK in DXVK stands for Vulkan. Also Tomb Raider 4 uses DirectX 7 which is not supported by DXVK so you'd need to combine it with dgVoodoo2 [0] to translate DX7 -dgVoodoo2-> DX11 -DXVK-> Vulkan, which did work quite well for me with Tomb Raider 4 and 5 while Wine's DirectX 7 implementation had rendering issues at the time. [0] http://dege.freeweb.hu/ http://dege.freeweb.hu/
m3at 6y ago
Thanks for the Ubershaders link it's very interesting, I had not heard of it despite being a casual Dolphin user!

ekianjo 6y ago

DXVK also works on Windows, to translate DX11 calls to Vulkan and pipe them thru the graphics card's own Vulkan driver. Video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVYprONeDtY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVYprONeDtY

AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago

> In some cases, running the Windows version inside Proton has actually worked out better for me than the native port I, for one, am not surprised. Windows userland APIs are more stable, consistent, and well documented than their Linux equivalents.

elteto 6y ago
The implication from the comment was that Wine is better at running old Windows games than Windows itself. I’m not sure where this Linux vs. Windows comparison is coming from.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
  I don't believe that is correct. > (Dead Cells, for example. The native port crashes the Steam overlay and lacks Steam Controller support, but running the Windows version in Proton is seamless) Suggests the comment is about running the Windows version under Proton being a better experience than running the native Linux version.
  - dx87 6y ago
    Both are correct. Some native ports run better under Proton because the port sucks, but I recently saw a video where they compared Doom Eternal with Proton vs running native on Windows, and the Proton version ran better than the Windows version running natively. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-XnlUMfkjM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-XnlUMfkjM
    - mikepurvis 6y ago
      It would be interesting to have some analysis digging into potential causes for this result. As someone who was recently surprised at how much impact a CPU upgrade (G3258 -> 4570 on the same LGA 1150 motherboard [1]) had on overall performance even in older indie titles where I wouldn't have expected it to matter much, I would be curious to look at what background services are running, what their cpu/memory footprint is, and how well the OS handles scheduling them. Even without the obvious pigs like virus scanner, printer utility, launchers for other storefronts, various chrome-embeds like Slack and Spotify, I wouldn't be surprised if the Linux desktop does a better job of this. [1]: https://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Pentium-G3258-vs-Intel-Core-i5-4570/2434vs2770 https://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Pentium-G3258-vs...
      - dx87 6y ago
        The most common theory is that it's the Denuvo anti-piracy software. It's known to cause performance drops on Windows, and it often has to be bypassed or disabled in Linux games.
  - elteto 6y ago
    I see now. I stand corrected.
- chaorace 6y ago
  Ah, the parent comment is actually correct here. Dead Cells is a modern release with a released Linux port. Unfortunately, it isn't interacting correctly with the Steam overlay API and the issues haven't been fixed for months. Running the Windows version via Proton, ironically, is a more stable experience for my use-case.
- coldpie 6y ago
  No, you mis-read. chaorace said that Windows EXEs running in Proton gives them better results than running the Linux binary that the game developer ships ("native"). AnIdiotOnTheNet stated that Windows APIs are more stable and better documented than Linux APIs. As a long-time Linux dev (see my profile), I have also found this to be true. Linux userland APIs are unstable and change all the time. Some transitions that come to mind that have affected me personally: ALSA->pulse; libudev->libudev2->systemd; gstreamer 0.10->1.0. All of those changes required modifications to my software, and the backwards-compat tools that are provided are buggy and insufficient. Meanwhile, you can still write and run winmm[1] applications on Windows 10, and they will work in almost all cases. It's simply the case that the win32 API is more stable than Linux userland APIs, so it's entirely plausible that games will run better in Wine, which shares that stable ABI, than they will on Linux, especially as time goes on and Linux userland shifts yet again. [1] winmm dates to the Windows 3.x days!
  - JoeAltmaier 6y ago
    I've been suspicious of user-led development (e.g. open source), expecially Linux. Its popular to put in new features; less so to test, endure backward compatibility, control user experience. So it doesn't get done (much) in Linux. My cohort have a phrase they attribute to me: Linux is not ready until they get the 'Have Disk' dialog.
    - Karunamon 6y ago
      What dialog is that?
      - recursive 6y ago
        Perhaps this one? https://www.dell.com/support/article/en-us/sln286269/how-to-install-or-re-install-a-printer-on-windows-7-using-a-usb-connection?lang=en https://www.dell.com/support/article/en-us/sln286269/how-to-... About a third of the way down.
    - coldpie 6y ago
      Eh, I don't agree. Linux has been "ready" for my usecase for more than a decade. There's pros and cons to each certainly, but I find Linux much more pleasant to use than Windows, and I like actually being in control of and able to modify the software I run. Until I can do that, Windows is not ready for me :)
yesco 6y ago
Keep in mind most "native" ports are just crappy, but official, wrappers that just do what proton does but worse. This is why you will see a lot of native ports perform worse, they weren't really native in the first place.
- coldpie 6y ago
  I'm gonna blow your mind: the word "native" doesn't actually mean anything in this context. The only thing that matters is official support from the developer, regardless of the technology used.
  - egeozcan 6y ago
    It's supposed to mean no system call translation but alas, you're right, it usually doesn't.
  - yesco 6y ago
    I was explaining how an official port could perform worse than an unofficial one, so yes "native" would absolutely mean something in this context. It's commonly understood that using the native system interfaces would usually be faster than using a compatibility layer. > The only thing that matters is official support from the developer, regardless of the technology used. The only thing that matters for what? I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.

choward 6y ago

How so you know if someone is an arch user? > I needed to reclaim my Windows partition and go full-on Arch! They tell you.

chaorace 6y ago
I considered making this joke myself lol. In reality, I actually just use Manjaro, but I enjoy playing into the stereotype :)

cferr 6y ago

Ditto here. My wife's PC, for example, is now running OpenSUSE full time. She used to dual boot with Windows 10, primarily for games, but she would spend most of her computing time using Windows just because of the game inconvenience. Now pretty much everything she plays 'just works' with Proton, and she has no need for Windows.

benibela 6y ago

I wasted a lot of time with DXVK when I tried to play Tomb Raider 4. WineHQ said you need DXVK when you want proper shadowing, but I could not get it to work. Finally, it turned out my laptop is probably too old for DXVK (i7-4600U). But Wine 5 can run the game without DXVK. I just needed to install it from outside the distro repo, since the distro only had wine 4

account42 6y ago
Well yeah, the VK in DXVK stands for Vulkan. Also Tomb Raider 4 uses DirectX 7 which is not supported by DXVK so you'd need to combine it with dgVoodoo2 [0] to translate DX7 -dgVoodoo2-> DX11 -DXVK-> Vulkan, which did work quite well for me with Tomb Raider 4 and 5 while Wine's DirectX 7 implementation had rendering issues at the time. [0] http://dege.freeweb.hu/ http://dege.freeweb.hu/

m3at 6y ago

Thanks for the Ubershaders link it's very interesting, I had not heard of it despite being a casual Dolphin user!