3 ms·

> New York City’s MTA subway system, whose conductors have used a modified point-only system since 1996 after then Chief Transportation Officer Nathaniel Ford w

by pas 7y ago

> New York City’s MTA subway system, whose conductors have used a modified point-only system since 1996 after then Chief Transportation Officer Nathaniel Ford was fascinated by the point-and-call system during a business trip to Japan. In the MTA’s case, conductors point to a fixed black-and-white “zebra board” to confirm a stopped train is correctly located along the platform.

tialaramex 7y ago
It does seem crazy that New York still has two man operation. A machine is also capable of confirming correct alignment to some marker, and won't get distracted or confused. I assume it's a union thing? If you are going to spend millions of dollars (yes really) paying for an extra person on every train, clearly having them fixed in a place where they can point at a board so as to not automate an easy problem is a poor use compared to them roaming the train. Of course New York's trains still also don't have open gangways, so it wouldn't be easy to do that either. But a guard who actually strolls up and down the train helping passengers might actually make a useful difference compared to replacing a trivial mechanical sensor with a well-paid human.
- innocenat 7y ago
  I know nothing about subway in the US, but living in Japan, most systems here still have 2 staff per train. The conductor job here includes confirming overall safety of the train (including confirming stop position), open-close door, and general communication to the passengers. There are systems here that use 1 man to operate, but those are generally the lower throughput system.
- hudibras 7y ago
  For a high-traffic train, you need to have someone manually open and close the doors. You can't use automatic doors like on an elevator because someone will invariably keep them from shutting, either on purpose or by accident.
- downerending 7y ago
  You really need an attentive person to keep people from being dragged--there is no substitute. (And in some curved stations, the driver can't even see to the rear end of the train.) In principle, everything could be enclosed, like an elevator, but in practice most stations would be all but impossible to retrofit.
  - majewsky 7y ago
    Then why does it work just fine with one conductor in most other metro systems? > And in some curved stations, the driver can't even see to the rear end of the train. Mirrors and CCTV are a thing. At the Berlin metro, the platform has a big mirror or a CCTV screen array next to where the train cockpit stops. Other metros' stations have wireless CCTV systems that show up inside the cockpit while the train is stopped.
    - downerending 7y ago
      Note that NYC trains have just one conductor, AFAIK. The second person is the driver. For dragging, it's not just where the train stops. You have to be able to see the entire side of the train as it leaves the station (e.g., for 100 meters, at least). Video might be possible, but it'd need to be attached to the train, because that's where the dragging happens. Realistically, though, NY doesn't have the money for this conversion. And more importantly, the driver needs to attend forward, not be carefully watching the dragging video.
      - majewsky 7y ago
        > Note that NYC trains have just one conductor, AFAIK. The second person is the driver. Sorry, that was lost in translation. By "conductor", I meant "driver". All the metro trains that I know have only one personnel on board, the driver. Also, what do you mean by "dragging"? People or clothes getting stuck in a door? It seems to be very important, but I've never heard of this being a large problem in practice.
        7y ago
- pas 7y ago
  NY metro is a very real mess. Were it a uniform mess it had been already modernized, automated and in general de-messed. NYC suffers from the fact that it's currently in a local minima and no one wants to put up the insane amounts of money that would be needed to modernize the system. Sure, some parts are getting modernized, but it just means you'll have the same mismatch of various parts in a big ball of track. (The "tragedy of the anticommons" - https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2019/11/29/penn-station-robert-caro-073564 https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2019/11/29/penn-stati... )

by pas 7y ago

tialaramex 7y ago

It does seem crazy that New York still has two man operation. A machine is also capable of confirming correct alignment to some marker, and won't get distracted or confused. I assume it's a union thing? If you are going to spend millions of dollars (yes really) paying for an extra person on every train, clearly having them fixed in a place where they can point at a board so as to not automate an easy problem is a poor use compared to them roaming the train. Of course New York's trains still also don't have open gangways, so it wouldn't be easy to do that either. But a guard who actually strolls up and down the train helping passengers might actually make a useful difference compared to replacing a trivial mechanical sensor with a well-paid human.

innocenat 7y ago
I know nothing about subway in the US, but living in Japan, most systems here still have 2 staff per train. The conductor job here includes confirming overall safety of the train (including confirming stop position), open-close door, and general communication to the passengers. There are systems here that use 1 man to operate, but those are generally the lower throughput system.
hudibras 7y ago
For a high-traffic train, you need to have someone manually open and close the doors. You can't use automatic doors like on an elevator because someone will invariably keep them from shutting, either on purpose or by accident.
downerending 7y ago
You really need an attentive person to keep people from being dragged--there is no substitute. (And in some curved stations, the driver can't even see to the rear end of the train.) In principle, everything could be enclosed, like an elevator, but in practice most stations would be all but impossible to retrofit.
- majewsky 7y ago
  Then why does it work just fine with one conductor in most other metro systems? > And in some curved stations, the driver can't even see to the rear end of the train. Mirrors and CCTV are a thing. At the Berlin metro, the platform has a big mirror or a CCTV screen array next to where the train cockpit stops. Other metros' stations have wireless CCTV systems that show up inside the cockpit while the train is stopped.
  - downerending 7y ago
    Note that NYC trains have just one conductor, AFAIK. The second person is the driver. For dragging, it's not just where the train stops. You have to be able to see the entire side of the train as it leaves the station (e.g., for 100 meters, at least). Video might be possible, but it'd need to be attached to the train, because that's where the dragging happens. Realistically, though, NY doesn't have the money for this conversion. And more importantly, the driver needs to attend forward, not be carefully watching the dragging video.
    - majewsky 7y ago
      > Note that NYC trains have just one conductor, AFAIK. The second person is the driver. Sorry, that was lost in translation. By "conductor", I meant "driver". All the metro trains that I know have only one personnel on board, the driver. Also, what do you mean by "dragging"? People or clothes getting stuck in a door? It seems to be very important, but I've never heard of this being a large problem in practice.
      - 7y ago
pas 7y ago
NY metro is a very real mess. Were it a uniform mess it had been already modernized, automated and in general de-messed. NYC suffers from the fact that it's currently in a local minima and no one wants to put up the insane amounts of money that would be needed to modernize the system. Sure, some parts are getting modernized, but it just means you'll have the same mismatch of various parts in a big ball of track. (The "tragedy of the anticommons" - https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2019/11/29/penn-station-robert-caro-073564 https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2019/11/29/penn-stati... )