4 ms·

That makes sense. Given that one can write good compute shaders with Vulkan, the next obvious question worth answering to me is whether one should do that. If

That makes sense. Given that one can write good compute shaders with Vulkan, the next obvious question worth answering to me is whether one should do that. If I had to write a new foundational library, e.g., something like CUTLASS or cuFFT for device code, I won't start with code that fully uses a device, but I'd like to be able to do that if I want to. If I need to reach for CUDA to do that, then Vulkan, WebGPU, etc. will need to have great FFI with CUDA C++. Nobody wants to have to "drop up" to a higher-level CUDA C++ API like CUTLASS, but being forced to do so by "dropping down" that API to a C FFI wrapper. It would be like having Rust, but without any unsafe code support except for C FFI, C actually not existing, and having to drop "down" to C++ for everything, and then numbing down the C++ to C FFI for interoperability. You might as well just stick with C++ and spare you the pain. I hope Vulkan and WebGPU get enough extensions so that foundational libraries can be written in those languages.

raphlinus 7y ago
Thanks for your continued discussion! I wrote some more of my thoughts on the xi Zulip #gpu channel (login required, open to everybody with Github): https://xi.zulipchat.com/#narrow/stream/197075-gpu/topic/Prefix.20sum.20.2F.20scan https://xi.zulipchat.com/#narrow/stream/197075-gpu/topic/Pre...
- fluffything 7y ago
  @Raph I don't have Zulip, but you have motivated me to play a lot the last weekends with Vulkan compute, and I am a bit disappointed. I think I was expecting to have a similar level of control as with CUDA or OpenCL, but it turns out that wgpu/Vulkan compute is more like "OpenGL compute shaders", which is "compute for a rendering pipeline", something quite different than "CUDA/OpenCL compute", which has nothing to do with rendering. If all you want is to stick a compute shader in your rendering pipeline, then wgpu/vulkan are great IMO. If you want to do CFD, linear algebra, or machine learning, then it feels like fighting against a technology that just wasn't meant to be used for that. I managed to write a tiny explicit CFD code with Vulkan compute just fine, but the moment I wanted to implement a slightly more complicated algorithm, I was limited by things like how to properly do linear algebra (e.g. I needed a algebraic multi-grid preconditioner and a conjugate gradients implementation, and ended up fighting against how to control what's get put into shared memory when). When trying some NN kernels, I got stuck with the same issue. I managed to implement an FFT and convolutions with Vulkan, but... I couldn't manage to get convolutions achieve the same perf as with CUDA cause with Vulkan I had to use a "pull" algorithm (read from all points in the window, write to one point), but that just performed way worse than the "push" algorithms that are possible to implement with CUDA (maintain a shared memory cache where you write, and as you read one value from the window, write its contribution to multiple locations, then do a full cache write to global memory). In numbers, I went from ~150 Gb/s throughput with Vulkan to ~700Gb/s with CUDA. I think maybe Vulkan/SPIRV could benefit from better compilers that take the "pull" algorithm and compile it to a "push" one using shared memory, but you are then at the mercy of the compiler for a 4x perf diff. I think that if I have a rendering pipeline in which I want to integrate some compute, then wgpu/Vulkan are great, particularly because chances are that the compute you need is per "vertex/pixel/..." kind of naive-massively-parallel kind of compute. But if I just have a raw compute pipeline, then it feels like using the wrong tool for the job.

raphlinus 7y ago

Thanks for your continued discussion! I wrote some more of my thoughts on the xi Zulip #gpu channel (login required, open to everybody with Github): https://xi.zulipchat.com/#narrow/stream/197075-gpu/topic/Prefix.20sum.20.2F.20scan https://xi.zulipchat.com/#narrow/stream/197075-gpu/topic/Pre...

fluffything 7y ago
@Raph I don't have Zulip, but you have motivated me to play a lot the last weekends with Vulkan compute, and I am a bit disappointed. I think I was expecting to have a similar level of control as with CUDA or OpenCL, but it turns out that wgpu/Vulkan compute is more like "OpenGL compute shaders", which is "compute for a rendering pipeline", something quite different than "CUDA/OpenCL compute", which has nothing to do with rendering. If all you want is to stick a compute shader in your rendering pipeline, then wgpu/vulkan are great IMO. If you want to do CFD, linear algebra, or machine learning, then it feels like fighting against a technology that just wasn't meant to be used for that. I managed to write a tiny explicit CFD code with Vulkan compute just fine, but the moment I wanted to implement a slightly more complicated algorithm, I was limited by things like how to properly do linear algebra (e.g. I needed a algebraic multi-grid preconditioner and a conjugate gradients implementation, and ended up fighting against how to control what's get put into shared memory when). When trying some NN kernels, I got stuck with the same issue. I managed to implement an FFT and convolutions with Vulkan, but... I couldn't manage to get convolutions achieve the same perf as with CUDA cause with Vulkan I had to use a "pull" algorithm (read from all points in the window, write to one point), but that just performed way worse than the "push" algorithms that are possible to implement with CUDA (maintain a shared memory cache where you write, and as you read one value from the window, write its contribution to multiple locations, then do a full cache write to global memory). In numbers, I went from ~150 Gb/s throughput with Vulkan to ~700Gb/s with CUDA. I think maybe Vulkan/SPIRV could benefit from better compilers that take the "pull" algorithm and compile it to a "push" one using shared memory, but you are then at the mercy of the compiler for a 4x perf diff. I think that if I have a rendering pipeline in which I want to integrate some compute, then wgpu/Vulkan are great, particularly because chances are that the compute you need is per "vertex/pixel/..." kind of naive-massively-parallel kind of compute. But if I just have a raw compute pipeline, then it feels like using the wrong tool for the job.