5 ms·

Consciousness studies will be the next frontier and may bring our race further, faster, than space exploration. In my opinion.

toxicFork 6y ago
We were the final frontier all along.
ralusek 6y ago
I've never once heard a bit of insight from a psychonaut that was particularly game-changing. We're all connected, consciousness is an illusion, societal structures are somewhat arbitrarily defined, etc. These are the existential thoughts of teenagers. Life is just energy, energy is just vibrations, everything is a fractal, etc, these are just the existential speculations of people making baseless claims. Consciousness as a useful frontier, in my opinion, will only have utility as it intersects with neuroscience and artificial intelligence. Producing consciousness with AI will be game-changing. Altering or affecting consciousness with neuroscience, or allowing consciousness to interact with neuroscience in such a way that interfaces with other technologies will be game-changing, sure. But giving people psychedelics and having them explore their own consciousnesses is not going to catalyze our society forward by leaps and bounds, that has been done since at least the 60s. I obviously don't care if people do whatever they'd like, I just don't see the point in romanticizing them.
- pharke 6y ago
  I think this is more or less obviously wrong. Imagine a primitive society inventing the microscope and then making it illegal, perhaps going so far as to make all types of lenses illegal even those used for eyeglasses. Now you might have small numbers of people willing to experiment with lenses and microscopy in secret but if the society wages a war on glass and actively persecutes and imprisons anyone involved in the lens business it's going to make it very difficult for anyone to make any progress and those that do are going to be people on the fringe with little ability to pursue their research or communicate it to others. It seems possible to me that psychedelics may be a form of "microscope for the mind" that makes clear details and inner workings that we were not able to see otherwise. It won't revolutionize our understanding over night since we would still need to build a science around it just as we did with the microscope when we discovered a world we had only inklings of before.
  - ralusek 6y ago
    The microscope was a tool for observing a new layer of objective, real, reproducible phenomenon within a previously inaccessible layer of our universe. Now, considering the conversation we're having, feel free to take "objective and real" with a grain of salt, but what I mean is that they are internally consistent, verifiable, reproducible, etc. Psychedelics have so far proven to be capable of temporarily rewiring our already highly flawed, subjective consciousness computers, in ways that can be potentially useful, but mostly seem to produce epiphanies that are rooted entirely in subjectivity, entirely fabricated. I don't really care at all if you had an experience that told you that all life existed on a 4 dimensional tetrahedron rotating through time. I do care, though, if you saw some behavior in a bacteria through a microscope which other people can observe and similarly draw their own judgements from. That doesn't mean that I don't think that already intelligent people can't benefit from an occasional new perspective, potentially brought about by psychedelics in the same way that it could be brought on by a move to a new country, or a walk outside, but that doesn't mean that I think that psychedelics are the gateway to an entire frontier on consciousness.
    - pharke 6y ago
      My point was not about the validity of psychedelic experiences. It was about the fact that we have outright banned all avenues of research into these alterations in consciousness so we can't even find out if there are reproducible effects across individuals. If you did care about scientific inquiry and reproducibility then you would also be against these absurd restrictions. Because of this self-imposed ignorance we're just now beginning to see that psychedelics and other psychoactives can be used to treat a variety of psychological afflictions. I don't think you grasp how important it is to have access to compounds that can produce fundamental alterations to our conscious perception that take effect immediately, have few to no side effects and are completely reversible. Only TDCS and TMS have come anywhere close to that and their effects are nowhere near as powerful or significant. This isn't about taking a break from reality, doing some yoga, and instagramming your latest shower thought. It's being able to pry open the black box of your own consciousness and poking around inside to see what happens without the necessity of brain surgery and risk of permanent physical or mental disability. By the way "subjective consciousness computers" sounds about as accurate as "4 dimensional tetrahedron rotating through time". Both are little better than word salad with only tenuous connection to the things they're attempting to describe.
- vitorbaptistaa 6y ago
  Clichés have this issue. They are the fruit of deep introspection by generations, but the end result feels so small that it can be easily ignored. We are all connected. Love thy neighbor. Consciousness is an illusion. Yadda yadda. Boooring. We hear them so much that we become numb and don't give them a second thought. Yeah, we are all connected. So what? I have more important things to do. And we do, of course. The rent is due, COVID-19, wars, and so on. Then, at some point in people's lives, we stop and ask: why? What's the point in all of this? We get so lost in the day to day that it's hard to see the forest from the trees. Psychedelics give you a different perspective. It's like going for a ride in your inner self. You might come out now just knowing these clichés, but feeling them. This difference is immense [1]. The same can be done via spirituality and meditation, but there are very few (if any) ways to experience these things as intensely and as quickly as with psychedelics. The challenge is applying these insights in your life, otherwise it's just a fun trip. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/29/world/americas/a-hallucinogenic-tea-time-for-some-brazilian-prisoners.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/29/world/americas/a-hallucin...
- mx24 6y ago
  > Consciousness as a useful frontier, in my opinion, will only have utility as it intersects with neuroscience and artificial intelligence. So by neuroscience and artificial intelligence I'm guessing we can assume you're just referring to western science. How about the Buddhists? Or the shamans in tribal societies around the world? Was there no utility in their understanding and manipulation of consciousness (which was often achieved through the use of psychedelics)? In many ways the shamans and other spiritual practitioners are far ahead of western science in terms of understanding consciousness. However, that is rarely acknowledged in western society, especially among technical folks such as ourselves. Western science is not the only valid way to understand reality.
  - kfrzcode 6y ago
    This is the thread I was pulling on. Have you ever stopped to really ponder the literal awesome nature of dreaming? A relatively simple function we all practice, even our dogs. When you're in a lucid dream, you have the ability to construct your reality with nothing more than intention. It's a higher fidelity experience for every sense than any virtual reality gear known to Silicon Valley could provide. The nature of lucid dreaming combined with a deeply introspective nature have certainly led me to believe there is a deep well of discovery when it comes to studying consciousness. Is it an emergent phenomenon? Is it something else entirely? Are we all just deterministic robotic meat-sacks? Are we truly just in a simulation? > Western science is not the only valid way to understand reality. "Dreams represent just one type of illusion. The whole universe arises and dissolves like a mirage. Everything about us, even the most enlightened qualities, are also dreamlike phenomena. There's nothing that is not encompassed within the dream of illusory being; so in going to sleep, you're just passing from one dream state to another."
- rv-de 6y ago
  > I've never once heard a bit of insight from a psychonaut that was particularly game-changing. What is game changing is the experience - not reading or hearing about it.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- steve76 6y ago
  I care greatly if people do whatever they'd like. Tolerances build up. Eventually the drug only stops withdrawals and people just take it just to be normal. Money runs out, and the part of your body that has been numbed by drugs wakes up. That part rarely gets attention. Getting over it can take decades, not just some simple two month detox, and everyone else has to clean up the mess. It gets ugly quick. That's why we have locks on our doors and traffic stops. I really wonder what the world would look like if people were nice. > But giving people psychedelics and having them explore their own consciousnesses is not going to catalyze our society forward by leaps and bounds, that has been done since at least the 60s. How about the reverse? You tripping? ok. Turn down the atom interferometer please.
- kfrzcode 6y ago
  Psychedelics maybe a useful instrument with which to prod at our psyches, though not what I was implying, by any means. > useful frontier I think it's useful if one is to gain deeper self-awareness and emotional discipline by exploring one's perception. Remove mental obfuscations and negative emotions, let go of all perceived realities of samsara and you may approach self-enlightenment.

toxicFork 6y ago

We were the final frontier all along.

ralusek 6y ago

I've never once heard a bit of insight from a psychonaut that was particularly game-changing. We're all connected, consciousness is an illusion, societal structures are somewhat arbitrarily defined, etc. These are the existential thoughts of teenagers. Life is just energy, energy is just vibrations, everything is a fractal, etc, these are just the existential speculations of people making baseless claims. Consciousness as a useful frontier, in my opinion, will only have utility as it intersects with neuroscience and artificial intelligence. Producing consciousness with AI will be game-changing. Altering or affecting consciousness with neuroscience, or allowing consciousness to interact with neuroscience in such a way that interfaces with other technologies will be game-changing, sure. But giving people psychedelics and having them explore their own consciousnesses is not going to catalyze our society forward by leaps and bounds, that has been done since at least the 60s. I obviously don't care if people do whatever they'd like, I just don't see the point in romanticizing them.

pharke 6y ago
I think this is more or less obviously wrong. Imagine a primitive society inventing the microscope and then making it illegal, perhaps going so far as to make all types of lenses illegal even those used for eyeglasses. Now you might have small numbers of people willing to experiment with lenses and microscopy in secret but if the society wages a war on glass and actively persecutes and imprisons anyone involved in the lens business it's going to make it very difficult for anyone to make any progress and those that do are going to be people on the fringe with little ability to pursue their research or communicate it to others. It seems possible to me that psychedelics may be a form of "microscope for the mind" that makes clear details and inner workings that we were not able to see otherwise. It won't revolutionize our understanding over night since we would still need to build a science around it just as we did with the microscope when we discovered a world we had only inklings of before.
- ralusek 6y ago
  The microscope was a tool for observing a new layer of objective, real, reproducible phenomenon within a previously inaccessible layer of our universe. Now, considering the conversation we're having, feel free to take "objective and real" with a grain of salt, but what I mean is that they are internally consistent, verifiable, reproducible, etc. Psychedelics have so far proven to be capable of temporarily rewiring our already highly flawed, subjective consciousness computers, in ways that can be potentially useful, but mostly seem to produce epiphanies that are rooted entirely in subjectivity, entirely fabricated. I don't really care at all if you had an experience that told you that all life existed on a 4 dimensional tetrahedron rotating through time. I do care, though, if you saw some behavior in a bacteria through a microscope which other people can observe and similarly draw their own judgements from. That doesn't mean that I don't think that already intelligent people can't benefit from an occasional new perspective, potentially brought about by psychedelics in the same way that it could be brought on by a move to a new country, or a walk outside, but that doesn't mean that I think that psychedelics are the gateway to an entire frontier on consciousness.
  - pharke 6y ago
    My point was not about the validity of psychedelic experiences. It was about the fact that we have outright banned all avenues of research into these alterations in consciousness so we can't even find out if there are reproducible effects across individuals. If you did care about scientific inquiry and reproducibility then you would also be against these absurd restrictions. Because of this self-imposed ignorance we're just now beginning to see that psychedelics and other psychoactives can be used to treat a variety of psychological afflictions. I don't think you grasp how important it is to have access to compounds that can produce fundamental alterations to our conscious perception that take effect immediately, have few to no side effects and are completely reversible. Only TDCS and TMS have come anywhere close to that and their effects are nowhere near as powerful or significant. This isn't about taking a break from reality, doing some yoga, and instagramming your latest shower thought. It's being able to pry open the black box of your own consciousness and poking around inside to see what happens without the necessity of brain surgery and risk of permanent physical or mental disability. By the way "subjective consciousness computers" sounds about as accurate as "4 dimensional tetrahedron rotating through time". Both are little better than word salad with only tenuous connection to the things they're attempting to describe.
vitorbaptistaa 6y ago
Clichés have this issue. They are the fruit of deep introspection by generations, but the end result feels so small that it can be easily ignored. We are all connected. Love thy neighbor. Consciousness is an illusion. Yadda yadda. Boooring. We hear them so much that we become numb and don't give them a second thought. Yeah, we are all connected. So what? I have more important things to do. And we do, of course. The rent is due, COVID-19, wars, and so on. Then, at some point in people's lives, we stop and ask: why? What's the point in all of this? We get so lost in the day to day that it's hard to see the forest from the trees. Psychedelics give you a different perspective. It's like going for a ride in your inner self. You might come out now just knowing these clichés, but feeling them. This difference is immense [1]. The same can be done via spirituality and meditation, but there are very few (if any) ways to experience these things as intensely and as quickly as with psychedelics. The challenge is applying these insights in your life, otherwise it's just a fun trip. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/29/world/americas/a-hallucinogenic-tea-time-for-some-brazilian-prisoners.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/29/world/americas/a-hallucin...
mx24 6y ago
> Consciousness as a useful frontier, in my opinion, will only have utility as it intersects with neuroscience and artificial intelligence. So by neuroscience and artificial intelligence I'm guessing we can assume you're just referring to western science. How about the Buddhists? Or the shamans in tribal societies around the world? Was there no utility in their understanding and manipulation of consciousness (which was often achieved through the use of psychedelics)? In many ways the shamans and other spiritual practitioners are far ahead of western science in terms of understanding consciousness. However, that is rarely acknowledged in western society, especially among technical folks such as ourselves. Western science is not the only valid way to understand reality.
- kfrzcode 6y ago
  This is the thread I was pulling on. Have you ever stopped to really ponder the literal awesome nature of dreaming? A relatively simple function we all practice, even our dogs. When you're in a lucid dream, you have the ability to construct your reality with nothing more than intention. It's a higher fidelity experience for every sense than any virtual reality gear known to Silicon Valley could provide. The nature of lucid dreaming combined with a deeply introspective nature have certainly led me to believe there is a deep well of discovery when it comes to studying consciousness. Is it an emergent phenomenon? Is it something else entirely? Are we all just deterministic robotic meat-sacks? Are we truly just in a simulation? > Western science is not the only valid way to understand reality. "Dreams represent just one type of illusion. The whole universe arises and dissolves like a mirage. Everything about us, even the most enlightened qualities, are also dreamlike phenomena. There's nothing that is not encompassed within the dream of illusory being; so in going to sleep, you're just passing from one dream state to another."
rv-de 6y ago
> I've never once heard a bit of insight from a psychonaut that was particularly game-changing. What is game changing is the experience - not reading or hearing about it.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
steve76 6y ago
I care greatly if people do whatever they'd like. Tolerances build up. Eventually the drug only stops withdrawals and people just take it just to be normal. Money runs out, and the part of your body that has been numbed by drugs wakes up. That part rarely gets attention. Getting over it can take decades, not just some simple two month detox, and everyone else has to clean up the mess. It gets ugly quick. That's why we have locks on our doors and traffic stops. I really wonder what the world would look like if people were nice. > But giving people psychedelics and having them explore their own consciousnesses is not going to catalyze our society forward by leaps and bounds, that has been done since at least the 60s. How about the reverse? You tripping? ok. Turn down the atom interferometer please.
kfrzcode 6y ago
Psychedelics maybe a useful instrument with which to prod at our psyches, though not what I was implying, by any means. > useful frontier I think it's useful if one is to gain deeper self-awareness and emotional discipline by exploring one's perception. Remove mental obfuscations and negative emotions, let go of all perceived realities of samsara and you may approach self-enlightenment.