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I was waiting for Cory to get to the main reason he had an issue with Marc's article, since most of his initial response was just quoting other random bits and

I was waiting for Cory to get to the main reason he had an issue with Marc's article, since most of his initial response was just quoting other random bits and pieces to try and prove him wrong. And then came this sizzler: > We’ve chosen not to build a system because we’re a racist, classist country. And there it is. Racism is to blame. All the deaths in NYC due to unpreparedness, lack of funding over decades, a shitty private health system, no decent leadership from both sides of politics ... they're actually because the US is just a racist country. The IRS? Turns out they're actually racist for requiring a bank account to transfer money to. Sorry. You need to do better than that. > Or, you know, break the systemic racist, classist policies that form the backbone of repression throughout this country. Oh look, there it is again. Not enough hospitals being built? That's because we're racist. Core infrastructure falling apart? Yeah, racism. Not enough jobs to go around? That's racist too! This is pathetic.

ggm 7y ago
Just so we're clear, you actually don't think there is wide scale systematic institutionalized racism? Not that there are not other contributing factors, that it doesn't exist?
- tomcatfish 7y ago
  I do not believe the poster said that, it is more that, in the style they quoted it, the article says `p -> q`, where q = we are racist and q = we did not build this system. They never claim there is not racism in the United States, only that they do not agree that is why the system was built.
  - ggm 7y ago
    I wouldn't normally quote politico as a source, my politics don't align. That said: https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/19/why-new-jerseys-ventilator-guidelines-may-favor-younger-whiter-patients-194094 https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/19/why-new-jerseys-ven... Lawmakers in New Jersey, which is quickly becoming the new epicenter of the Covid-19 pandemic, are worried new emergency triage guidelines for the state’s hospitals could push younger, whiter patients to the front of the line. “We do know that it exists, institutional bias exists throughout all of health care,” Persichilli said Wednesday
- cwhiz 7y ago
  I’m not OP but I absolutely do not believe there is wide scale systematic institutionalized racism. Everyone wants to be a victim rather than facing the reality that they are responsible for their outcome in life. Being a victim is just too easy. Does racism exist? Yes. Wide scale systematic institutionalized racism? Absolutely not.
  - david_w 7y ago
    At least some of life for some people is luck in the real sense that undeserving people (Joe Biden's son, say, merely to cite one example) are lifted up thanks to who their parents are. Bad luck is when you're effectively ruined by the age of 5 thanks once again to who your parents were. The only way out for someone that fits this description is to adopt a self-reliant, goal directed attitude. Self-reliant, goal directed behavior is essentially what people not born lucky or ruined do to improve their position in life. What society can do to help is communicate clearly that the virtues of persistence, resilency, self-reliance and goal directed behavior are "cool" or in sociological-speak, society's normative values. Unfortunately, since Rousseau and Marx, we have birthed a counter-culture that is determined to do the opposite. It's determined to place the locus of control over one's life outside of the individual and onto a nepharious "society". Marx personally was an unhappy, deeply defective, and cruel personality. His philosophy stems directly from this. It attracts people who share his defects- namely people filled with resentment, envy, a desire to extract revenge for perceived slights and a lust for absolute power. The hope is that eventually, through CRISPR and other techniques, that as a side effect of improving human functioning the well-spring of such people will simply dry up. Until then, we have to do battle with a philosophy which preaches the diametric opposite of what we know leads to human flourishing and happiness.
    - cwhiz 7y ago
      Life is full of luck and for every Hunter Biden there are 100 children growing up in failed homes. I didn't say luck and privilege don't exist but I absolutely do not agree that as a nation we have institutionalized racism. I can't even believe it's such a controversial statement to get downvote bombed. Poverty rates are disproportionately high among black and hispanic citizens but as a percentage of total population they are absolutely dwarfed by white poverty. What is the reason that so many white Americans are living in poverty? Is it perhaps possible that it is a similar reason that black and hispanic citizens are living in poverty? Poverty rates are always written as a percentage of the population of that race but if you rewrite them to be a percentage of US population a different narrative starts to emerge... ~2.7% of Americans are black people in poverty. ~3.0% of Americans are hispanic people in poverty. ~6.5% of Americans are white people in poverty. We have problems of economic opportunity in this country. Writing it off as racism is missing the elephant in the room.
kamiel 7y ago
He clearly wrote racist and classist.
ampersandy 7y ago
It's abundantly clear that he took issue with the entire article, it wasn't some rant about racism. Original tweet: https://twitter.com/cory_foy/status/1251705040873689088 https://twitter.com/cory_foy/status/1251705040873689088 It's also quite clear he takes issue with the Trump administration and Marc's attempts to downplay their role in the current crisis and our preparedness. > The IRS? Turns out they're actually racist for requiring a bank account to transfer money to. Cory didn't say the IRS is racist for requiring bank accounts, he's saying racist/classist policies prevented people from getting them in the first place. You're intentionally misrepresenting his response to claim everything is about the current crisis — it is obviously not. Nor is Marc's original article.
Gabriel_Martin 7y ago
Odd that you hyperfocus on the racism piece, when he said racist and classist. Honestly, if you have an argument that fundamentally accepting race and class injustices lead to the damaging reality we're living now, I'm not seeing it. I feel like the only argument I'm really seeing is "surely it can't be as simple as systemic injustices", which just seems like a silly caveat to me. Of course it could be, and likely is.
- DeathArrow 7y ago
  What you mean by "the damaging reality we're living now"?
0x8BADF00D 7y ago
People are intentionally inserting identity politics into their articles to get views and upvotes. Even if it means being intellectually dishonest. It’s really a shame too, because there are legitimate criticisms to be made of the original article.
lidHanteyk 7y ago
Of course you're going to say that, though; your religious beliefs are so thick that they obscure your ability to empathize with other humans. Let's get some data, shall we? Here's demographics of NYC [0], and here's demographics of COVID-19 deaths in NYC [1]. Black/African-American folks make up 25% of NYC's population, but 33% of all deaths. White folks make up 45% of the population, but 31% of all deaths. I don't need a t-test to know that that's statistically significant. Shitty private health is due to racism and classism; folks aren't willing to foot the bill for others, as if we're somehow not living in a society. We have plenty of good leadership from sides not commonly represented; Bernie and the Larrys were frozen out, remember? This country's Overton window is so far to the upper-right that it's nigh-impossible to get any traction on positive social policies. You act as if this country's classist and racist history doesn't exist, which is silly. Hopefully you know about the Voting Rights Act [2] and the fact that this country has been so classist and racist that we have explicitly passed laws about it. And yes, there is a long history in this country of disenfranchising minorities by, amongst other things, denying them banking services. Sorry, but you need to do better, you pathetic sad-sack snowflake! Right now you sound like not just part of the problem, but happily part of the problem. Fix yourself. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_New_York_City#Demographic_profile https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_New_York_City#... [1] https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/doh/downloads/pdf/imm/covid-19-deaths-race-ethnicity-04162020-1.pdf https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/doh/downloads/pdf/imm/covid-19-d... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_Rights_Act_of_1965#Provisions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_Rights_Act_of_1965#Prov...
- tanseydavid 7y ago
  "Sorry, but you need to do better, you pathetic sad-sack snowflake! Right now you sound like not just part of the problem, but happily part of the problem. Fix yourself." This comment is totally unnecessary and really not appropriate for HN.
  - lidHanteyk 7y ago
    This is tone-policing; if "pathetic" is not appropriate here, then it's not appropriate in the (great-grand)parent's post, either. But I will unpack exactly what I meant. "pathetic" is literal, and used in the same sense that the parent used it; it connotes that their comment evokes pathos, and lacks ethos, logos, or bathos. A "sad-sack" is somebody who ruins the tone or vibe of a conversation with their attitude, usually by making people feel uncomfortable and sad. A "snowflake" is somebody who cannot stand being criticized, and erupts in anger whenever confronted with evidence which contradicts their beliefs. "part of the problem" is an old rhetorical idea relating to good-faith argumentation; the idea is that if somebody repeatedly admits to all of the premises but not the conclusion, over and over, then eventually we must conclude that they are refusing to engage with the argument in good faith. "fix yourself" is pretty direct; I want the parent to read the links that I provided and reconsider their beliefs, and optionally to then re-read the original linked article and commentary and see if they come to a better understanding.

ggm 7y ago

Just so we're clear, you actually don't think there is wide scale systematic institutionalized racism? Not that there are not other contributing factors, that it doesn't exist?

tomcatfish 7y ago
I do not believe the poster said that, it is more that, in the style they quoted it, the article says `p -> q`, where q = we are racist and q = we did not build this system. They never claim there is not racism in the United States, only that they do not agree that is why the system was built.
- ggm 7y ago
  I wouldn't normally quote politico as a source, my politics don't align. That said: https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/19/why-new-jerseys-ventilator-guidelines-may-favor-younger-whiter-patients-194094 https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/19/why-new-jerseys-ven... Lawmakers in New Jersey, which is quickly becoming the new epicenter of the Covid-19 pandemic, are worried new emergency triage guidelines for the state’s hospitals could push younger, whiter patients to the front of the line. “We do know that it exists, institutional bias exists throughout all of health care,” Persichilli said Wednesday
cwhiz 7y ago
I’m not OP but I absolutely do not believe there is wide scale systematic institutionalized racism. Everyone wants to be a victim rather than facing the reality that they are responsible for their outcome in life. Being a victim is just too easy. Does racism exist? Yes. Wide scale systematic institutionalized racism? Absolutely not.
- david_w 7y ago
  At least some of life for some people is luck in the real sense that undeserving people (Joe Biden's son, say, merely to cite one example) are lifted up thanks to who their parents are. Bad luck is when you're effectively ruined by the age of 5 thanks once again to who your parents were. The only way out for someone that fits this description is to adopt a self-reliant, goal directed attitude. Self-reliant, goal directed behavior is essentially what people not born lucky or ruined do to improve their position in life. What society can do to help is communicate clearly that the virtues of persistence, resilency, self-reliance and goal directed behavior are "cool" or in sociological-speak, society's normative values. Unfortunately, since Rousseau and Marx, we have birthed a counter-culture that is determined to do the opposite. It's determined to place the locus of control over one's life outside of the individual and onto a nepharious "society". Marx personally was an unhappy, deeply defective, and cruel personality. His philosophy stems directly from this. It attracts people who share his defects- namely people filled with resentment, envy, a desire to extract revenge for perceived slights and a lust for absolute power. The hope is that eventually, through CRISPR and other techniques, that as a side effect of improving human functioning the well-spring of such people will simply dry up. Until then, we have to do battle with a philosophy which preaches the diametric opposite of what we know leads to human flourishing and happiness.
  - cwhiz 7y ago
    Life is full of luck and for every Hunter Biden there are 100 children growing up in failed homes. I didn't say luck and privilege don't exist but I absolutely do not agree that as a nation we have institutionalized racism. I can't even believe it's such a controversial statement to get downvote bombed. Poverty rates are disproportionately high among black and hispanic citizens but as a percentage of total population they are absolutely dwarfed by white poverty. What is the reason that so many white Americans are living in poverty? Is it perhaps possible that it is a similar reason that black and hispanic citizens are living in poverty? Poverty rates are always written as a percentage of the population of that race but if you rewrite them to be a percentage of US population a different narrative starts to emerge... ~2.7% of Americans are black people in poverty. ~3.0% of Americans are hispanic people in poverty. ~6.5% of Americans are white people in poverty. We have problems of economic opportunity in this country. Writing it off as racism is missing the elephant in the room.

kamiel 7y ago

He clearly wrote racist and classist.

ampersandy 7y ago

It's abundantly clear that he took issue with the entire article, it wasn't some rant about racism. Original tweet: https://twitter.com/cory_foy/status/1251705040873689088 https://twitter.com/cory_foy/status/1251705040873689088 It's also quite clear he takes issue with the Trump administration and Marc's attempts to downplay their role in the current crisis and our preparedness. > The IRS? Turns out they're actually racist for requiring a bank account to transfer money to. Cory didn't say the IRS is racist for requiring bank accounts, he's saying racist/classist policies prevented people from getting them in the first place. You're intentionally misrepresenting his response to claim everything is about the current crisis — it is obviously not. Nor is Marc's original article.

Gabriel_Martin 7y ago

Odd that you hyperfocus on the racism piece, when he said racist and classist. Honestly, if you have an argument that fundamentally accepting race and class injustices lead to the damaging reality we're living now, I'm not seeing it. I feel like the only argument I'm really seeing is "surely it can't be as simple as systemic injustices", which just seems like a silly caveat to me. Of course it could be, and likely is.

DeathArrow 7y ago
What you mean by "the damaging reality we're living now"?

0x8BADF00D 7y ago

People are intentionally inserting identity politics into their articles to get views and upvotes. Even if it means being intellectually dishonest. It’s really a shame too, because there are legitimate criticisms to be made of the original article.

lidHanteyk 7y ago

Of course you're going to say that, though; your religious beliefs are so thick that they obscure your ability to empathize with other humans. Let's get some data, shall we? Here's demographics of NYC [0], and here's demographics of COVID-19 deaths in NYC [1]. Black/African-American folks make up 25% of NYC's population, but 33% of all deaths. White folks make up 45% of the population, but 31% of all deaths. I don't need a t-test to know that that's statistically significant. Shitty private health is due to racism and classism; folks aren't willing to foot the bill for others, as if we're somehow not living in a society. We have plenty of good leadership from sides not commonly represented; Bernie and the Larrys were frozen out, remember? This country's Overton window is so far to the upper-right that it's nigh-impossible to get any traction on positive social policies. You act as if this country's classist and racist history doesn't exist, which is silly. Hopefully you know about the Voting Rights Act [2] and the fact that this country has been so classist and racist that we have explicitly passed laws about it. And yes, there is a long history in this country of disenfranchising minorities by, amongst other things, denying them banking services. Sorry, but you need to do better, you pathetic sad-sack snowflake! Right now you sound like not just part of the problem, but happily part of the problem. Fix yourself. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_New_York_City#Demographic_profile https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_New_York_City#... [1] https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/doh/downloads/pdf/imm/covid-19-deaths-race-ethnicity-04162020-1.pdf https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/doh/downloads/pdf/imm/covid-19-d... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_Rights_Act_of_1965#Provisions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_Rights_Act_of_1965#Prov...

tanseydavid 7y ago
"Sorry, but you need to do better, you pathetic sad-sack snowflake! Right now you sound like not just part of the problem, but happily part of the problem. Fix yourself." This comment is totally unnecessary and really not appropriate for HN.
- lidHanteyk 7y ago
  This is tone-policing; if "pathetic" is not appropriate here, then it's not appropriate in the (great-grand)parent's post, either. But I will unpack exactly what I meant. "pathetic" is literal, and used in the same sense that the parent used it; it connotes that their comment evokes pathos, and lacks ethos, logos, or bathos. A "sad-sack" is somebody who ruins the tone or vibe of a conversation with their attitude, usually by making people feel uncomfortable and sad. A "snowflake" is somebody who cannot stand being criticized, and erupts in anger whenever confronted with evidence which contradicts their beliefs. "part of the problem" is an old rhetorical idea relating to good-faith argumentation; the idea is that if somebody repeatedly admits to all of the premises but not the conclusion, over and over, then eventually we must conclude that they are refusing to engage with the argument in good faith. "fix yourself" is pretty direct; I want the parent to read the links that I provided and reconsider their beliefs, and optionally to then re-read the original linked article and commentary and see if they come to a better understanding.