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> It's not much of a blind spot. Fuel cells are worse for consumer cars than batteries, both in environmental terms and in terms of convenience. A BEV can recha

by Hypx 6y ago

> It's not much of a blind spot. Fuel cells are worse for consumer cars than batteries, both in environmental terms and in terms of convenience. A BEV can recharge at home using existing standard outlets (a 240v 30A or 50A dryer outlet for good performance, or even a 120v regular outlet will do if you're willing to wait a while); good luck refilling a fuel cell. And if you don't have a garage? Or park on the street? You're just hand-waving away a very consumer hostile problem. You have to assume that there will eventually be a hydrogen refueling network, at which point refueling is just 5 minutes for 300-400 miles of range. > Also, most independent real-world tests I've seen of hydrogen cells reported much lower efficiency in practice than claimed — often between 30-40%. The only tank-to-wheel 60% claim I could find was a statement by Honda of their own car; I doubt those tests you claim really exist. Hyundai claims their car also gets 60% efficiency [1]. > In fact, the battery-based version of the same exact car, the Honda Clarity EV, has an EPA rating of 114 MPGe [3], which is nearly 70% more efficient. I don't doubt BEVs are more efficient. It's likely just irrelevant as we build out an insane about of renewable wind and solar. Right now, the problem is we are producing too much, not too little, renewable energy. The goal is to use that nearly free electricity to make hydrogen [2]. 1. https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1119347_2019-hyundai-nexo-first-drive-of-380-mile-fuel-cell-crossover-utility https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1119347_2019-hyundai-ne... 2. https://www.governing.com/next/Americas-Largest-Municipal-Utility-Invests-from-Coal-to-Hydrogen-Power.html https://www.governing.com/next/Americas-Largest-Municipal-Ut...

reissbaker 6y ago
> And if you don't have a garage? Or park on the street? Use a charging network; there are plenty (and there's far more investment in expanding them than hydrogen). Many malls and grocery stores have chargers in their parking lots reserved for EVs; you can charge while you shop. > I doubt those tests you claim really exist. Saved you the Google search: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell#In_practice https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell#In_practice > The goal is to use that nearly free electricity to make hydrogen Sure, as an alternative at grid scale (which is what the link you posted references). But BEVs are more efficient, and simpler, for consumer cars. We already have an electrical grid. Even just transporting the hydrogen from the generator to the theoretical thousands of refueling stations would be inefficient and wasteful. > Right now, the problem is we are producing too much, not too little, renewable energy Less than 15% of America's energy comes from renewable sources. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_renewable_electricity_production https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_renewab...
- Hypx 6y ago
  > Use a charging network; there are plenty (and there's far more investment in expanding them than hydrogen). Many malls and grocery stores have chargers in their parking lots reserved for EVs; you can charge while you shop. This really kills the convenience argument though. If you must recharge using public stations, it is much less convenient that hydrogen stations that can do it in 5 minutes. > Saved you the Google search: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell#In_practice https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell#In_practice The study was conducted back in 2007, a time where fuel cell cars basically didn’t exist yet. I suppose this does qualify as “existing,” but it is not real world and is clearly wrong as of today. Fuel cell cars today are at 60% regardless. This is also hard to dispute, since a 35% efficient fuel cell car cannot approach 68MPGe. So it is an outdated study at best. > Sure, as an alternative at grid scale (which is what the link you posted references). But BEVs are more efficient, and simpler, for consumer cars. We already have an electrical grid. Even just transporting the hydrogen from the generator to the theoretical thousands of refueling stations would be inefficient and wasteful. It costs very little to pipeline hydrogen around. This is not a problem if we have plenty of cheap hydrogen to go around. > Less than 15% of America's energy comes from renewable sources. It is much higher in states that invested in renewable energy. California is at 30% for instance. It’s even higher in some countries in Europe. What we’re finding is that power swings from >80% to less than 20% on a regular basis. This problem is addressed here: https://www.governing.com/next/Americas-Largest-Municipal-Utility-Invests-from-Coal-to-Hydrogen-Power.html https://www.governing.com/next/Americas-Largest-Municipal-Ut...
  - reissbaker 6y ago
    > The study was conducted back in 2007, a time where fuel cell cars basically didn’t exist yet. I suppose this does qualify as “existing,” but it is not real world and is clearly wrong as of today. The first study in the linked article was conducted in 2010. FWIW, Honda's study (which is the only one I can find a source for that claims 60% tank-to-wheel) was conducted in 2008. > Fuel cell cars today are at 60% regardless. Source? Ideally to an independent, real-world study. The EPA MPGe ratings have strongly disagreed with you that hydrogen is comparable to BEVs, as have the studies I've linked, so I'm curious where this 60% real-world claim is coming from. > This is also hard to dispute, since a 35% efficient fuel cell car cannot approach 68MPGe. EVs are generally able to get up to 77% efficiency in real-world usage, per the link I posted above. The Tesla Model 3, the most-efficient sedan in 2020 according to the US Dept of Energy [1], gets 141 MPGe. If we assume the Model 3 is 77% efficient, that leaves the Honda Clarity Fuel Cell (which is rated at 68 MPGe) at approx 37% efficient, since MPGe is strictly a measure of average distance traveled per equivalent unit of energy used [2]. Better than pure gasoline, sure, but it's still pretty far from a BEV. Even hybrids get decently close to hydrogen; the Prius, for example, gets 56 MPG. BEVs absolutely smoke both in terms of efficiency. 1: https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/topten.jsp https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/topten.jsp 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_per_gallon_gasoline_equivalent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_per_gallon_gasoline_equi...

by Hypx 6y ago

reissbaker 6y ago

> And if you don't have a garage? Or park on the street? Use a charging network; there are plenty (and there's far more investment in expanding them than hydrogen). Many malls and grocery stores have chargers in their parking lots reserved for EVs; you can charge while you shop. > I doubt those tests you claim really exist. Saved you the Google search: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell#In_practice https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell#In_practice > The goal is to use that nearly free electricity to make hydrogen Sure, as an alternative at grid scale (which is what the link you posted references). But BEVs are more efficient, and simpler, for consumer cars. We already have an electrical grid. Even just transporting the hydrogen from the generator to the theoretical thousands of refueling stations would be inefficient and wasteful. > Right now, the problem is we are producing too much, not too little, renewable energy Less than 15% of America's energy comes from renewable sources. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_renewable_electricity_production https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_renewab...

Hypx 6y ago
> Use a charging network; there are plenty (and there's far more investment in expanding them than hydrogen). Many malls and grocery stores have chargers in their parking lots reserved for EVs; you can charge while you shop. This really kills the convenience argument though. If you must recharge using public stations, it is much less convenient that hydrogen stations that can do it in 5 minutes. > Saved you the Google search: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell#In_practice https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell#In_practice The study was conducted back in 2007, a time where fuel cell cars basically didn’t exist yet. I suppose this does qualify as “existing,” but it is not real world and is clearly wrong as of today. Fuel cell cars today are at 60% regardless. This is also hard to dispute, since a 35% efficient fuel cell car cannot approach 68MPGe. So it is an outdated study at best. > Sure, as an alternative at grid scale (which is what the link you posted references). But BEVs are more efficient, and simpler, for consumer cars. We already have an electrical grid. Even just transporting the hydrogen from the generator to the theoretical thousands of refueling stations would be inefficient and wasteful. It costs very little to pipeline hydrogen around. This is not a problem if we have plenty of cheap hydrogen to go around. > Less than 15% of America's energy comes from renewable sources. It is much higher in states that invested in renewable energy. California is at 30% for instance. It’s even higher in some countries in Europe. What we’re finding is that power swings from >80% to less than 20% on a regular basis. This problem is addressed here: https://www.governing.com/next/Americas-Largest-Municipal-Utility-Invests-from-Coal-to-Hydrogen-Power.html https://www.governing.com/next/Americas-Largest-Municipal-Ut...
- reissbaker 6y ago
  > The study was conducted back in 2007, a time where fuel cell cars basically didn’t exist yet. I suppose this does qualify as “existing,” but it is not real world and is clearly wrong as of today. The first study in the linked article was conducted in 2010. FWIW, Honda's study (which is the only one I can find a source for that claims 60% tank-to-wheel) was conducted in 2008. > Fuel cell cars today are at 60% regardless. Source? Ideally to an independent, real-world study. The EPA MPGe ratings have strongly disagreed with you that hydrogen is comparable to BEVs, as have the studies I've linked, so I'm curious where this 60% real-world claim is coming from. > This is also hard to dispute, since a 35% efficient fuel cell car cannot approach 68MPGe. EVs are generally able to get up to 77% efficiency in real-world usage, per the link I posted above. The Tesla Model 3, the most-efficient sedan in 2020 according to the US Dept of Energy [1], gets 141 MPGe. If we assume the Model 3 is 77% efficient, that leaves the Honda Clarity Fuel Cell (which is rated at 68 MPGe) at approx 37% efficient, since MPGe is strictly a measure of average distance traveled per equivalent unit of energy used [2]. Better than pure gasoline, sure, but it's still pretty far from a BEV. Even hybrids get decently close to hydrogen; the Prius, for example, gets 56 MPG. BEVs absolutely smoke both in terms of efficiency. 1: https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/topten.jsp https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/topten.jsp 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_per_gallon_gasoline_equivalent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_per_gallon_gasoline_equi...