7 ms·

50k-year-old three-ply cord fragment found at Neanderthal site

79 points by diodorus 7y ago

actionowl 7y ago
I wonder if it was null terminated.
- Exorus18 7y ago
  Probably not - that's why Neanderthals went extinct.
  - olau 7y ago
    Are you claiming they couldn't get their ends to meet?
- harshbutfair 7y ago
  That was my first thought as well.
- dang 7y ago
  I'm putting a three-ply cord fragment to thwart you guys in the title above.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
readarticle 7y ago
”Given the ongoing revelations of Neanderthal art and technology, it is difficult to see how we can regard Neanderthals as anything other than the cognitive equals of modern humans," the study said. I don’t keep a finger on the pulse, but seeming advances in the study of Neanderthals have been noticeable from browsing HN alone this past decade. Are there any books or resources that look to bring a layman up to speed on the changes to and current state of the field, similar to what Mann’s 1491 did for pre-Columbian studies back in the day? I’ve turned up Pääbo’s Neanderthal Man before, but it was focused on genetics, and could be quite technical.
- d0100 7y ago
  It is difficult to see how we can regard Neanderthals as anything other than "the same as today just many years ago" At the risk of being disdained by "science", I never bought the idea of pre-historic human subspecies. The reason being is that I cannot fathom the evolutionary event that would cause our brain to develop in such a way that we evolved from "smart enough to outsmart all predators" to "completely dominate the earth and the elements". There hasn't seemed to exist any such predator or environment where such a huge jump in brain capacity would be required.
  - grawprog 7y ago
    >completely dominate the earth and the elements". I think that depends on how you look at it. If we're going by pure numbers, bacteria win by a landslide. Then we've got fungi which come pretty close to competing with bacteria for most numerous and widespread. Ants probably have us beat too along with a few other insects. But to address the point you were making. It didn't happen all at once. It was a long gradual process that occurred with huge overlap between different hominid species. The 'jump' in brain power wasn't a jump, but a slow process of selection where smarter individuals would outcompete the less intelligent ones. For example, they would possibly hunt more efficiently, using tools and having a better memory for migration routes, they would have a better memory for dangers etc. Over time individuals better suited to this would mate and breed with others, this in turn would pass those traits on to offspring while individuals who couldn't compete would be left out and over millions of years of this and constant adaptations acquired because of this, humanity got smarter.
    - TremendousJudge 7y ago
      You haven't mentioned what to me is a much more important evolutionary pressure: other humans. Politics is a feature of the ancestral environment. Humans aren't smart because they need to out-compete other species, or a harsh environment. Other animals do this as well, and none of those are as smart (sorry octopi, elephants, dolphins and crows). Humans are so intelligent because they had to out-compete each other, in a positive feedback loop that produced where we are at today
throwaway_pdp09 7y ago
0.5mm wide is very thin indeed, especially as it's made out of even 3 fibres. Finer than anything I'd expect to be handmade but IANANeanderthal.
- jarofgreen 7y ago
  I saw that to, but it seems clear that's the sizes now? I guess it was bigger and most of it has rotted away? But also IANANeanderthal.
harryf 7y ago
For a second there was thinking Live, Neutral, Earth?!? Wow these Neanderthals were far ahead...
- DiabloD3 7y ago
  No, they were even more advanced: Fire, Wind, Water, Earth
jstewartmobile 7y ago
Will Blavatsky have the last laugh?
ungzd 7y ago
Is there link to this story on something other than ultra-mainstream media?
- detaro 7y ago
  The paper is linked from the article.
- mattkrause 7y ago
  Here's the actual paper: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-61839-w https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-61839-w Hardy, B. L., Moncel M.-H., Kerfant C., Lebon, Bellot-Gurlet M. L., & Mélard N. (2020). "Direct evidence of Neanderthal fibre technology and its cognitive and behavioral implications." Scientific Reports. 10(4889).
visarga 7y ago
> Three groups of fibres were separated and twisted clockwise in an "S-twist". Once twisted, the strands were twined anti-clockwise in "Z-twist" to form a cord. And hardly could they imagine the academic language used in analysing their handy work.
JoeAltmaier 7y ago
This seems a stretch. The art, craft and social structures of Neanderthal can only be seen as 'very primitive' compared to modern humans. This PC insistence on making them seem 'as smart as us' does no service to science. They are similar in kind to us, in that they could master (simple) crafts. But evidence shows they often learned it from Homo Sapiens, and imperfectly at that.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
throwaway36377 7y ago
I have friend who does genetic testing and had person who wasn't matching sapiens genome and compared to Neanderthal with much better match. Out of curiosity found Facebook profile and they look like Neanderthal. Is it possible that they aren't exinct?
- seemslegit 7y ago
  IANAGeneticist but afaik it is known that there was interbreeding between modern humans and neanderthals and there are populations in Europe and Middle East with genetically discernible neanderthal ancestry, still your observation that they "look like a Neanderthal" is probably affected by confirmation bias.
  - cmrdporcupine 7y ago
    Actually all that is known is that there is shared genetic sequences that indicate interbreeding as one possible scenario. I've heard others make the claim that the same phenomenon could have been caused by populations of sapiens that had archaic genetic features (that is shared by both sapiens and neanderthal) from much further back. I expect the genetic picture is far more complicated than we thought or think, and "interbreeding" is a simplistic way of talking about populations. Species are, after all, a taxonomical concept we invented, not an actual thing in nature. The lines are far more blurry.
    - seemslegit 7y ago
      No disagreement there, just pointing that interbreeding is a natural default hypotheses given that we know that at some point their living areas began to overlap and the Neanderthals eventually disappeared as a distinct species by that taxonomy - the debates afaik are about the scale of the phenomena that is whether they were mostly absorbed by modern humans or mostly driven to extinction or even killed by them.
      - cmrdporcupine 7y ago
        Lots of animals have gone extinct when our range overlapped with theirs :-)
ben174 7y ago
I think it's fairly obvious there was a giant blood war between the neanderthal and homo sapiens early on. And a mass extinction of neanderthals. Simply because they were different. If anyone has more information about it, I'd love to hear more.
- jmcgough 7y ago
  A sizeable chunk (like 1-4%) of our DNA comes from Neanderthals, and there's recent evidence that they produced offspring with humans. The two coexisted and interbred for many years. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interbreeding_between_archaic_and_modern_humans https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interbreeding_between_archai...

79 points by diodorus 7y ago

actionowl 7y ago

I wonder if it was null terminated.

Exorus18 7y ago
Probably not - that's why Neanderthals went extinct.
- olau 7y ago
  Are you claiming they couldn't get their ends to meet?
harshbutfair 7y ago
That was my first thought as well.
dang 7y ago
I'm putting a three-ply cord fragment to thwart you guys in the title above.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

readarticle 7y ago

”Given the ongoing revelations of Neanderthal art and technology, it is difficult to see how we can regard Neanderthals as anything other than the cognitive equals of modern humans," the study said. I don’t keep a finger on the pulse, but seeming advances in the study of Neanderthals have been noticeable from browsing HN alone this past decade. Are there any books or resources that look to bring a layman up to speed on the changes to and current state of the field, similar to what Mann’s 1491 did for pre-Columbian studies back in the day? I’ve turned up Pääbo’s Neanderthal Man before, but it was focused on genetics, and could be quite technical.

d0100 7y ago
It is difficult to see how we can regard Neanderthals as anything other than "the same as today just many years ago" At the risk of being disdained by "science", I never bought the idea of pre-historic human subspecies. The reason being is that I cannot fathom the evolutionary event that would cause our brain to develop in such a way that we evolved from "smart enough to outsmart all predators" to "completely dominate the earth and the elements". There hasn't seemed to exist any such predator or environment where such a huge jump in brain capacity would be required.
- grawprog 7y ago
  >completely dominate the earth and the elements". I think that depends on how you look at it. If we're going by pure numbers, bacteria win by a landslide. Then we've got fungi which come pretty close to competing with bacteria for most numerous and widespread. Ants probably have us beat too along with a few other insects. But to address the point you were making. It didn't happen all at once. It was a long gradual process that occurred with huge overlap between different hominid species. The 'jump' in brain power wasn't a jump, but a slow process of selection where smarter individuals would outcompete the less intelligent ones. For example, they would possibly hunt more efficiently, using tools and having a better memory for migration routes, they would have a better memory for dangers etc. Over time individuals better suited to this would mate and breed with others, this in turn would pass those traits on to offspring while individuals who couldn't compete would be left out and over millions of years of this and constant adaptations acquired because of this, humanity got smarter.
  - TremendousJudge 7y ago
    You haven't mentioned what to me is a much more important evolutionary pressure: other humans. Politics is a feature of the ancestral environment. Humans aren't smart because they need to out-compete other species, or a harsh environment. Other animals do this as well, and none of those are as smart (sorry octopi, elephants, dolphins and crows). Humans are so intelligent because they had to out-compete each other, in a positive feedback loop that produced where we are at today

throwaway_pdp09 7y ago

0.5mm wide is very thin indeed, especially as it's made out of even 3 fibres. Finer than anything I'd expect to be handmade but IANANeanderthal.

jarofgreen 7y ago
I saw that to, but it seems clear that's the sizes now? I guess it was bigger and most of it has rotted away? But also IANANeanderthal.

harryf 7y ago

For a second there was thinking Live, Neutral, Earth?!? Wow these Neanderthals were far ahead...

DiabloD3 7y ago
No, they were even more advanced: Fire, Wind, Water, Earth

jstewartmobile 7y ago

Will Blavatsky have the last laugh?

ungzd 7y ago

Is there link to this story on something other than ultra-mainstream media?

detaro 7y ago
The paper is linked from the article.
mattkrause 7y ago
Here's the actual paper: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-61839-w https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-61839-w Hardy, B. L., Moncel M.-H., Kerfant C., Lebon, Bellot-Gurlet M. L., & Mélard N. (2020). "Direct evidence of Neanderthal fibre technology and its cognitive and behavioral implications." Scientific Reports. 10(4889).

visarga 7y ago

> Three groups of fibres were separated and twisted clockwise in an "S-twist". Once twisted, the strands were twined anti-clockwise in "Z-twist" to form a cord. And hardly could they imagine the academic language used in analysing their handy work.

JoeAltmaier 7y ago

This seems a stretch. The art, craft and social structures of Neanderthal can only be seen as 'very primitive' compared to modern humans. This PC insistence on making them seem 'as smart as us' does no service to science. They are similar in kind to us, in that they could master (simple) crafts. But evidence shows they often learned it from Homo Sapiens, and imperfectly at that.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

throwaway36377 7y ago

I have friend who does genetic testing and had person who wasn't matching sapiens genome and compared to Neanderthal with much better match. Out of curiosity found Facebook profile and they look like Neanderthal. Is it possible that they aren't exinct?

seemslegit 7y ago
IANAGeneticist but afaik it is known that there was interbreeding between modern humans and neanderthals and there are populations in Europe and Middle East with genetically discernible neanderthal ancestry, still your observation that they "look like a Neanderthal" is probably affected by confirmation bias.
- cmrdporcupine 7y ago
  Actually all that is known is that there is shared genetic sequences that indicate interbreeding as one possible scenario. I've heard others make the claim that the same phenomenon could have been caused by populations of sapiens that had archaic genetic features (that is shared by both sapiens and neanderthal) from much further back. I expect the genetic picture is far more complicated than we thought or think, and "interbreeding" is a simplistic way of talking about populations. Species are, after all, a taxonomical concept we invented, not an actual thing in nature. The lines are far more blurry.
  - seemslegit 7y ago
    No disagreement there, just pointing that interbreeding is a natural default hypotheses given that we know that at some point their living areas began to overlap and the Neanderthals eventually disappeared as a distinct species by that taxonomy - the debates afaik are about the scale of the phenomena that is whether they were mostly absorbed by modern humans or mostly driven to extinction or even killed by them.
    - cmrdporcupine 7y ago
      Lots of animals have gone extinct when our range overlapped with theirs :-)

ben174 7y ago

I think it's fairly obvious there was a giant blood war between the neanderthal and homo sapiens early on. And a mass extinction of neanderthals. Simply because they were different. If anyone has more information about it, I'd love to hear more.

jmcgough 7y ago
A sizeable chunk (like 1-4%) of our DNA comes from Neanderthals, and there's recent evidence that they produced offspring with humans. The two coexisted and interbred for many years. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interbreeding_between_archaic_and_modern_humans https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interbreeding_between_archai...