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I’m a crazy cat person who also lives in a neighborhood of a major city (Jamaica Plain, Boston). I have 3 cats. I have often dreamed of building them something

I’m a crazy cat person who also lives in a neighborhood of a major city (Jamaica Plain, Boston). I have 3 cats. I have often dreamed of building them something like this, but the insane drivers around here have discouraged me. My neighbor let’s his cat in and out through a small door he made into a back window, and she is the fattest laziest cat I’ve ever seen, and has never been run over. But I just can’t get over the car issue.

dhosek 7y ago
Given all the dangers to an outdoor cat, not to mention all the dangers from an outdoor cat (there was a recent story on HN about how domestic cats decimate local wildlife), there's really no reason for a cat to live anywhere but safely indoors. Keep your cats inside.
- virtualritz 7y ago
  Sorry to be blunt but this is BS. Keeping a cat indoors is simply cruel. Cats need space. A house cat has a hunting ground around their home with a radius of 500m average. Male house cats can have up three times that even. If you absolutely want to have a cat and live in the inner city either get an old cat that (unfortunately) grew up indoors already or don't get a cat at all.
  - extra88 7y ago
    That is certainly not true of all cats. I and my family have never had a cat with a problem being indoors, even the one who spent his first year in and out.
  - Sniffnoy 7y ago
    Where are you getting these numbers from? Gwern[0], citing this paper[1] and John Bradshaw's book "Cat Sense" (note: I haven't read this book myself), gives much smaller numbers than that. Still much larger than what you'd find inside, but nowhere near the 500m (average!) or 1500m that you claim. [0] https://www.gwern.net/Cat-Sense https://www.gwern.net/Cat-Sense ; search for "91 meters" [1] https://www.gwern.net/docs/catnip/2020-kays.pdf https://www.gwern.net/docs/catnip/2020-kays.pdf
    - gumby 7y ago
      My sister reported encountering one of our house cats while riding her horse miles from our house. The other one never even made it as far as the horse paddock.
    - Y-bar 7y ago
      Might have been a mistake from the person you are replying to, a circle with 91m radius has a circumference of 571m, close enough?
  - ornornor 7y ago
    Cats that go outdoors get maimed. Lost. Stolen. Attacked. Run over. Are obese from eating their home food, hunted preys, and fed by neighbors. Live on average 7 years. Cats who stay indoors are much healthier, live 15-20 years, and are just as happy. Of course you need to play with them more so they don’t get bored, they need to have access to windows to look at interesting things all day. But it’s really only cruel if you expect your cat to live its own life without ever going outdoors. Otherwise they really don’t care. Ask any vet what they think of letting cats outdoors, you’d be surprised. And in the case of declawed cats: the pain can be so strong for the rest of their lives that it can drive them nuts causing all sorts of behavior problems. It’s illegal in a lot of places because that is cruel.
    - kwhitefoot 7y ago
      My last cat was an outside cat and was never stolen, only attacked once by another cat, got lost once (found by a kind stranger who rang the number on his collar), was never run over despite his habit of sunning himself in the middle of public car parking spaces (people used to wait for him to get out of the way), eventually got a bit plump when he stopped hunting as he got older and finally died aged sixteen. So, who's anecdote is worth more? Or should we just agree that not all cats are alike, not all environments are alike
      - ornornor 7y ago
        Yours is an anecdote alright. I’m glad your cat was fine outdoors. If you don’t believe me, ask your vet what they think they probably are much more knowledgeable than you or me on the question. See also https://www.americanhumane.org/fact-sheet/indoor-cats-vs-outdoor-cats/ https://www.americanhumane.org/fact-sheet/indoor-cats-vs-out..., http://www.thehumanesociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/indoors_outdoors.pdf http://www.thehumanesociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/i... (PDF warning)
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
        7y ago
- tropdrop 7y ago
  For some cats, this is cruel. Other cats tolerate a 100% indoor life with no complaint. I will provide my family's two cats as an example of both - both were raised by us from kittens, both raised to be indoors. They were both spayed, and my mother insisted on declawing them while they were under, just to prevent the scratching of furniture (which was very cruel. I was a child, so I had no input). One cat (no discernible breed, long black hair) would attempt to jump out the door every opportunity that it got. Finally it escaped, and would periodically escape through pushing out the screen on any window someone would forget to close. Eventually, she disappeared entirely - likely she died, since with no claws she could not protect herself from the wild of this Rocky Mountain state. This is a painful reminder that declawing is a bad idea. The other cat lives still (a Birman and/or Ragdoll variety, famously docile breed). It was always terrified of the outdoors and continues to have no interest in them. How would you feel if you were forced to live in a cage all your life when you yearned to be free? For some cats, this is cruelty. Keep those inside that you can, and some of the damage you mention will be minimized.
  - ornornor 7y ago
    > How would you feel if you were forced to live in a cage all your life when you yearned to be free? How would you feel if you had to eat cat food all your life, like your ass clean several times a day, and never brush your teeth in your whole life? The point being that you don’t think like a cat and a cat doesn’t think like you: you’re two different animals. Any animal would Ben Isérables in a literal cage. Luckily there are lots of things to do in a house and windows to look through. Not regally a cold steel 2 sqm barren space like a cage would be.
- flohofwoe 7y ago
  In my home village (South Eastern Germany), "outdoor cats" are the norm and nobody would even think about locking their cats indoors. The cats from different homes hang out together, have their little fights from time to time, make very loud love in summer nights (which is the only slightly annoying part), or get into furious disagreement with a weasel and other wildlife "invading" their territory in the village. Very rarely, a cat is run over by a car, but by far most cats seem to be smart enough to avoid cars (and human drivers also usually seem to be smart enough to avoid running over cats by driving somewhat responsibly).
prawn 7y ago
I know someone who had a netted cat run that went out a window and was suspended from a verandah so the cats could get fresh air, move between buildings, and watch the world go by without killing birds or getting killed by cars.
afc 7y ago
If it's any consolation, a friend in Zurich, Switzerland, who had two cats in a second floor apartment (third floor, by American count), had to ask for approval from every single neighbor in his medium-sized modern building, before he could build one such stair for his cats. Switzerland has a lot of regulations and procedures for things like this, and, the Swiss will have you know, this is what makes Switzerland great. A few neighbors opposed the stair. My friend had to consult with a lawyer and go through some annoying process to argue that the opposing neighbors were a minority and he was entitled to build the stair. It may have had something to do with a technicality, such as the neighbors missing some deadline and thus failing to register their disapproval (unfortunately, I don't fully remember all the details). In the end, he built the stair, but only one of his cats used it — the other one, the one with the twisted tail, would have nothing with it. Four months ago, my friend went to hike the trails around Machu Picchu. His mother stayed at his place, watching the cats, mail, watering the plants, etc.. While he was abroad, a car ran over the cat, who died one or two days later. I think the stair is still up, but now it never gets any use.

dhosek 7y ago

Given all the dangers to an outdoor cat, not to mention all the dangers from an outdoor cat (there was a recent story on HN about how domestic cats decimate local wildlife), there's really no reason for a cat to live anywhere but safely indoors. Keep your cats inside.

virtualritz 7y ago
Sorry to be blunt but this is BS. Keeping a cat indoors is simply cruel. Cats need space. A house cat has a hunting ground around their home with a radius of 500m average. Male house cats can have up three times that even. If you absolutely want to have a cat and live in the inner city either get an old cat that (unfortunately) grew up indoors already or don't get a cat at all.
- extra88 7y ago
  That is certainly not true of all cats. I and my family have never had a cat with a problem being indoors, even the one who spent his first year in and out.
- Sniffnoy 7y ago
  Where are you getting these numbers from? Gwern[0], citing this paper[1] and John Bradshaw's book "Cat Sense" (note: I haven't read this book myself), gives much smaller numbers than that. Still much larger than what you'd find inside, but nowhere near the 500m (average!) or 1500m that you claim. [0] https://www.gwern.net/Cat-Sense https://www.gwern.net/Cat-Sense ; search for "91 meters" [1] https://www.gwern.net/docs/catnip/2020-kays.pdf https://www.gwern.net/docs/catnip/2020-kays.pdf
  - gumby 7y ago
    My sister reported encountering one of our house cats while riding her horse miles from our house. The other one never even made it as far as the horse paddock.
  - Y-bar 7y ago
    Might have been a mistake from the person you are replying to, a circle with 91m radius has a circumference of 571m, close enough?
- ornornor 7y ago
  Cats that go outdoors get maimed. Lost. Stolen. Attacked. Run over. Are obese from eating their home food, hunted preys, and fed by neighbors. Live on average 7 years. Cats who stay indoors are much healthier, live 15-20 years, and are just as happy. Of course you need to play with them more so they don’t get bored, they need to have access to windows to look at interesting things all day. But it’s really only cruel if you expect your cat to live its own life without ever going outdoors. Otherwise they really don’t care. Ask any vet what they think of letting cats outdoors, you’d be surprised. And in the case of declawed cats: the pain can be so strong for the rest of their lives that it can drive them nuts causing all sorts of behavior problems. It’s illegal in a lot of places because that is cruel.
  - kwhitefoot 7y ago
    My last cat was an outside cat and was never stolen, only attacked once by another cat, got lost once (found by a kind stranger who rang the number on his collar), was never run over despite his habit of sunning himself in the middle of public car parking spaces (people used to wait for him to get out of the way), eventually got a bit plump when he stopped hunting as he got older and finally died aged sixteen. So, who's anecdote is worth more? Or should we just agree that not all cats are alike, not all environments are alike
    - ornornor 7y ago
      Yours is an anecdote alright. I’m glad your cat was fine outdoors. If you don’t believe me, ask your vet what they think they probably are much more knowledgeable than you or me on the question. See also https://www.americanhumane.org/fact-sheet/indoor-cats-vs-outdoor-cats/ https://www.americanhumane.org/fact-sheet/indoor-cats-vs-out..., http://www.thehumanesociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/indoors_outdoors.pdf http://www.thehumanesociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/i... (PDF warning)
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - 7y ago
tropdrop 7y ago
For some cats, this is cruel. Other cats tolerate a 100% indoor life with no complaint. I will provide my family's two cats as an example of both - both were raised by us from kittens, both raised to be indoors. They were both spayed, and my mother insisted on declawing them while they were under, just to prevent the scratching of furniture (which was very cruel. I was a child, so I had no input). One cat (no discernible breed, long black hair) would attempt to jump out the door every opportunity that it got. Finally it escaped, and would periodically escape through pushing out the screen on any window someone would forget to close. Eventually, she disappeared entirely - likely she died, since with no claws she could not protect herself from the wild of this Rocky Mountain state. This is a painful reminder that declawing is a bad idea. The other cat lives still (a Birman and/or Ragdoll variety, famously docile breed). It was always terrified of the outdoors and continues to have no interest in them. How would you feel if you were forced to live in a cage all your life when you yearned to be free? For some cats, this is cruelty. Keep those inside that you can, and some of the damage you mention will be minimized.
- ornornor 7y ago
  > How would you feel if you were forced to live in a cage all your life when you yearned to be free? How would you feel if you had to eat cat food all your life, like your ass clean several times a day, and never brush your teeth in your whole life? The point being that you don’t think like a cat and a cat doesn’t think like you: you’re two different animals. Any animal would Ben Isérables in a literal cage. Luckily there are lots of things to do in a house and windows to look through. Not regally a cold steel 2 sqm barren space like a cage would be.
flohofwoe 7y ago
In my home village (South Eastern Germany), "outdoor cats" are the norm and nobody would even think about locking their cats indoors. The cats from different homes hang out together, have their little fights from time to time, make very loud love in summer nights (which is the only slightly annoying part), or get into furious disagreement with a weasel and other wildlife "invading" their territory in the village. Very rarely, a cat is run over by a car, but by far most cats seem to be smart enough to avoid cars (and human drivers also usually seem to be smart enough to avoid running over cats by driving somewhat responsibly).

prawn 7y ago

I know someone who had a netted cat run that went out a window and was suspended from a verandah so the cats could get fresh air, move between buildings, and watch the world go by without killing birds or getting killed by cars.

afc 7y ago

If it's any consolation, a friend in Zurich, Switzerland, who had two cats in a second floor apartment (third floor, by American count), had to ask for approval from every single neighbor in his medium-sized modern building, before he could build one such stair for his cats. Switzerland has a lot of regulations and procedures for things like this, and, the Swiss will have you know, this is what makes Switzerland great. A few neighbors opposed the stair. My friend had to consult with a lawyer and go through some annoying process to argue that the opposing neighbors were a minority and he was entitled to build the stair. It may have had something to do with a technicality, such as the neighbors missing some deadline and thus failing to register their disapproval (unfortunately, I don't fully remember all the details). In the end, he built the stair, but only one of his cats used it — the other one, the one with the twisted tail, would have nothing with it. Four months ago, my friend went to hike the trails around Machu Picchu. His mother stayed at his place, watching the cats, mail, watering the plants, etc.. While he was abroad, a car ran over the cat, who died one or two days later. I think the stair is still up, but now it never gets any use.