5 ms·

Basically everything you said is wrong. The costs of fuel cells are dropping so fast, that that is probably the main driver of interest in fuel cell technology

• casion 6y ago
  OP mentioned things that exist now, your response seems to be that things are improving. Those ideas aren't at odds.
• reissbaker 6y ago
  It's not much of a blind spot. Fuel cells are worse for consumer cars than batteries, both in environmental terms and in terms of convenience. A BEV can recharge at home using existing standard outlets (a 240v 30A or 50A dryer outlet for good performance, or even a 120v regular outlet will do if you're willing to wait a while); good luck refilling a fuel cell. BEVs are nearly 80% efficient already [1], are comparatively widely deployed, and the infrastructure for them exists in everyone's home. For long distance travel, there are far more fast chargers than hydrogen stations, and far more investment in building more of them. Also, most independent real-world tests I've seen of hydrogen cells reported much lower efficiency in practice than claimed — often between 30-40%. The only tank-to-wheel 60% claim I could find was a statement by Honda of their own car; FWIW, the EPA rating of the latest, most-efficient version of that car (the Honda Clarity Fuel Cell) is actually 68 MPGe [2], which is much lower than most BEVs. In fact, the battery-based version of the same exact car, the Honda Clarity EV, has an EPA rating of 114 MPGe [3], which is nearly 70% more efficient. Hydrogen fuel cells for consumer cars just don't make sense. 1: https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/evtech.shtml https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/evtech.shtml 2: https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=40044 https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=40044 3: https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/41185.shtml https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/41185.shtml
  • fulafel 6y ago
    EVs still have enormous CO2 lifecycle footprints, to the point that they're not really a solution to road traffic CO2 emissions. How does the lifetime footprint compare to hydrogen based cars?
  • Hypx 6y ago
    > It's not much of a blind spot. Fuel cells are worse for consumer cars than batteries, both in environmental terms and in terms of convenience. A BEV can recharge at home using existing standard outlets (a 240v 30A or 50A dryer outlet for good performance, or even a 120v regular outlet will do if you're willing to wait a while); good luck refilling a fuel cell. And if you don't have a garage? Or park on the street? You're just hand-waving away a very consumer hostile problem. You have to assume that there will eventually be a hydrogen refueling network, at which point refueling is just 5 minutes for 300-400 miles of range. > Also, most independent real-world tests I've seen of hydrogen cells reported much lower efficiency in practice than claimed — often between 30-40%. The only tank-to-wheel 60% claim I could find was a statement by Honda of their own car; I doubt those tests you claim really exist. Hyundai claims their car also gets 60% efficiency [1]. > In fact, the battery-based version of the same exact car, the Honda Clarity EV, has an EPA rating of 114 MPGe [3], which is nearly 70% more efficient. I don't doubt BEVs are more efficient. It's likely just irrelevant as we build out an insane about of renewable wind and solar. Right now, the problem is we are producing too much, not too little, renewable energy. The goal is to use that nearly free electricity to make hydrogen [2]. 1. https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1119347_2019-hyundai-nexo-first-drive-of-380-mile-fuel-cell-crossover-utility https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1119347_2019-hyundai-ne... 2. https://www.governing.com/next/Americas-Largest-Municipal-Utility-Invests-from-Coal-to-Hydrogen-Power.html https://www.governing.com/next/Americas-Largest-Municipal-Ut...
    • reissbaker 6y ago
      > And if you don't have a garage? Or park on the street? Use a charging network; there are plenty (and there's far more investment in expanding them than hydrogen). Many malls and grocery stores have chargers in their parking lots reserved for EVs; you can charge while you shop. > I doubt those tests you claim really exist. Saved you the Google search: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell#In_practice https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell#In_practice > The goal is to use that nearly free electricity to make hydrogen Sure, as an alternative at grid scale (which is what the link you posted references). But BEVs are more efficient, and simpler, for consumer cars. We already have an electrical grid. Even just transporting the hydrogen from the generator to the theoretical thousands of refueling stations would be inefficient and wasteful. > Right now, the problem is we are producing too much, not too little, renewable energy Less than 15% of America's energy comes from renewable sources. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_renewable_electricity_production https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_renewab...