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There is the potential that you have ADHD, because what you're describing sounds similar to my situation. I eventually ended up on stimulant medication to help,

There is the potential that you have ADHD, because what you're describing sounds similar to my situation. I eventually ended up on stimulant medication to help, but there's non-stimulant medication available (if you're opposed to eating amphetamines for breakfast), as well as counselling and other treatment options that don't involve medication. Even if you don't want to seek professional treatment, you could look up articles on solving problems and achieving goals written specifically for people with ADHD and see if those help.

hsartoris 7y ago
Fellow ADHD sufferer here to second this. Thinking about ADHD as a deficit of motivation, which is much more accurate than an attention-oriented view, tends to clarify this sort of situation.
- dvcrn 7y ago
  Giving a third +1 here. I had (have) similar issues with motivation and got diagnosed with ADHD at age 25. I'd describe it as "a disability of knowing how to do something, but not actually doing it unless there are external consequences involved"
  - ExtremisAndy 7y ago
    Oh wow... you just described me with frightening accuracy. I’ve never seen my issue described so clearly and concisely. Basically, if there aren’t negative consequences for me not completing a task, my brain simply never gets motivated. It’s almost as if my brain is saying: “meh... you don’t really have to do this... so go play on Facebook some more”. If I could resolve this issue which has plagued me for years, it would revolutionize my life and career.
    - dvcrn 7y ago
      When in doubt always best to talk to a doc. Best case you are completely fine, but doesn't hurt checking. (The irony is that people with ADHD are probably the least likely to get up by themselves and make an appointment given that there are no consequences of not doing it lol) ADHD is of course not just motivation but a spectrum of symptoms. I'd highly recommend listening to Dr. Russell Barkley talk about ADHD on this playlist - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg6cfsnmqyg&list=PLzBixSjmbc8eFl6UX5_wWGP8i0mAs-cvY&index=2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg6cfsnmqyg&list=PLzBixSjmbc... Watch from 1B onwards and see if you feel like it describes you
  - thatsenough 7y ago
    How do you differentiate this from laziness/apathy?
    - twocats 7y ago
      Laziness and/or apathy are value judgments; they offer no useful insight into behaviour unless you believe that sin is a real thing.
      - thatsenough 7y ago
        Not really. You're choosing a definition those words that involves a value judgement.
    - internet_user 7y ago
      apathy can be part of dysexecutive syndromes, such as ADHD. To be pedantic, apathy is lack of emotion and interest. Often that is not the case in ADHD. The hallmark of that syndrome is the inability to follow through/self-regulate behavior/plan actions to achieve the objective they are interested in.
    - dvcrn 7y ago
      The feeling can feel similar which is probably why a lot of people think they are just lazy. But ADHD is more of a reduced / lack of self-drive combined with a self-regulation + internal prioritization problem. Maybe a bit like laziness but the feeling is multiplied. I of course have moments when I feel lazy and just don't want to do anything, but then there are the other moments when I want to do something, work on a project, practice a hobby but just don't. There is this disconnect, it's hard to explain Best to look at other key ADHD symptoms as well like emotional regulation, rejection sensitve dysphoria, focus, (mental) hyperactivity (= your brain can't just chill), the need to constantly do something, impulsiveness (like with money), etc etc etc. It's of course a spectrum and some people are worse in x while other people suffer more on y. Best to talk to a doc if it affects your life. Could be ADHD, could be something else. It's very common though so admitting that there might be a problem is the first step to getting better
- kharak 7y ago
  I have trouble focusing on work most of the time and lack the motivation for almost everything, unless not doing it would cause problems. But everything I've read about ADHD doesn't sound like a me at all. Never heard of your way of describing it though.
  - dvcrn 7y ago
    I just posted a comment below that sounds like that - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22920256 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22920256 Adhd feels like knowing how to do something and knowing you should do it, but not actually doing it. It’s like your inner drive is very weak unless there is an external consequence involved, like a deadline. Dumb examples are - your homework unless the deadline comes closer - a amazon box that you know the contents of but currently don’t need it, so it stays packaged standing around until you need the item or the space - dishes - a todo list item that’s floating around for weeks that takes minutes to complete but has no deadline Then at other moments something just grabs your attention and it becomes the most important thing right now even if you should be doing something else. Like finding a new tool or programming language that you really want to use immediately, or randomly cleaning your entrance area NOW even though you should be leaving for the train to make a meeting.
    - kharak 7y ago
      Adhd feels like knowing how to do something and knowing you should do it, but not actually doing it. It’s like your inner drive is very weak unless there is an external consequence involved, like a deadline. Yes, that would be me. I know what I need to do in so many ways. But doing it? If it isn't a habit or some form of negative emotion forces me to do it, almost impossible. There are, of course, exceptions. But in general, absolutely. Homework Yes, same with tasks / Jira stories today. Amazon box There is a printer inside a box in my living room that I need to print a work related document. It's now there for like 8 days? My office wrote me, that they need that document and boy don't I care about it, as it is merely a formality. So yes, total check. Dishes See, this is why I'm not completely convinced ADHD matches me. I never leave dishes behind. When I'm done cooking, even before I take the first bite, the kitchen is in perfect condition. Vacuuming my room on the other hand... Todo lists I need them to be productive, but my personal todo list tends to remain on my whiteboard for weeks or months until I do everything possible in one rush. I guess that is also a match? Your last paragraph sounds like doing things compulsively, things that aren't important right now. That is also a no match for me. I get hyper focused from time to time, although that has gotten quit rare in recent years. But I've never not went to a meeting or something similar because of it. If I need to do something, if I start to feel negative about it, I'll get it done no matter what. I'd feel quite awkward not getting to meetings, so that doesn't happen. Maybe this is still a match? Edit: On the other hand, I should complete a Jira story right now. But now I'm here and listening to a ADD related talk from another comment. But I really should work on that story to finish it. But I kind of have an open deadline. But it gets steadily more embarrassing that I haven't finished it. Uh oh.
- agumonkey 7y ago
  Anybody feels that ADHD or similar issues are often a sign that you're not doing things that you need to to be happy ? Like running after something for the wrong reasons ? Kinda like Bukowski "don't try" ? ps: to explain more, there were times where a) I was slowly but surely inspired by a topic and would just keep wondering and thinking about it, 'hard' or not, it was similar to walking a mental park b) I was motivated by desires (greatness, potential financial gains, social status, some faith that the outcome would make me feel happy) but now my feelings about them have changed so it feels pointless. I feel a lot better when doing things that have no real goal but actually procure a lightweight joy. For instance, I used to equate more study to more possibilities and capacity to 1) create more (joy) 2) get a good job. But my experience was that these efforts weren't useful in reality. Even though I got some FP moocs, solved problems alone, I'm still stuck too often, and recruiters don't give a damn. It all erodes your happiness/ROI center.
  - internet_user 7y ago
    Depression (and many other illnesses, autoimmune, hormonal deficiencies, sleep disorders, all kinds of dementia and other neurological illnesses) will produce a dysexecutive syndrome that's very similar, if not indisginuishable, from ADHD. In your specific case you may want to read up on something called "learned helplessness". Essentially you are being conditioned by failure to quit prematurely. That is different from ADHD. ADHD in itself is really a diagnosis of exclusion, where no clear cause can be found.
    - agumonkey 7y ago
      > Essentially you are being conditioned by failure to quit prematurely. Funny how my conclusions today are the opposite. I didn't quit early enough somehow. Well it's hard to tell, tbh, I've spent years learning hard stuff without any real benefit. So many a different course of action would make sense :)
    - eru 7y ago
      In practice, ADHD is what you have when stimulants make you get better. If your laundry lists of symptoms (depression, sleep disorders, lack of motivation etc) get better from stimulants, count yourself lucky. Stimulants work right away, if they work at all, and have few and relatively mild side-effects. Some of the side-effects, like weight loss, are even seen as welcome by many people. Others like having to pee more often and cold hands are relatively easy to deal with. For comparison, antidepressants take months to show even mild positive effects; and have major side-effects.
- internet_user 7y ago
  ADHD is best described as impaired self-directed behavior. The kernel of motivation may exist, but an ADHD victim would fail to follow through on that motivation, to their own detriment. Either due to lack of concentration, lack of planning, or lack of execution. Often all of the above. It is a general dysexecutive syndrome that that may impact all higher order cognitive functions. Motivation, on the other hand can also be impaired by depression (aka "learned helplessness" - which is not uncommon in ADHD), but that would not be ADHD in itself.
jacobolus 7y ago
Someone doesn’t have to have ADHD to shirk from hard problems. Expecting technical/intellectual problems to be easy to solve is something that is drilled into most people by the school system, which rarely if ever present problems that take more than a few minutes to solve, and pretty much never expect students to try tackling problems that require weeks of effort. The result is that when many people encounter a hard problem, if they can’t make progress after spending a bit of effort on it, they give up and conclude that either the problem is too hard or they are too stupid to keep going. There is probably an influence from inherent personality differences, but I would speculate that building up stamina for tackling hard problems comes down substantially to practice.
- eyelidlessness 7y ago
  > Someone doesn’t have to have ADHD to shirk from hard problems. At least 3-4 people with ADHD have already spotted the potential, and I expect that more will while the question is up. You're right that it doesn't have to be ADHD, but I don't really see the value in dismissing it either. Edit: > There is probably an influence from inherent personality differences, but I would speculate that building up stamina for tackling hard problems comes down substantially to practice. For those of us who do have a chemical imbalance, many of us have coping mechanisms which look a lot like building up this stamina. But it's important to understand that this can come very unnaturally for some people and be considerably more difficult and unstable.
- organsnyder 7y ago
  > There is probably an influence from inherent personality differences, but I would speculate that building up stamina for tackling hard problems comes down substantially to practice. I was diagnosed with ADHD my senior year of college. Before that, the mindset you're advocating got close to breaking me.
  - jacobolus 7y ago
    My “mindset” (if you can call it that) is that most people don’t get much experience tackling hard problems, at least up through school. In light of that, what I would “advocate” is that people should try to get practice working on problems at their current level of stamina/ability (which might be very low), and slowly work their way up, instead of beating themselves up when a problem much more difficult than what they were used to seemed like an impossible challenge. Maybe you can elaborate about what “mindset” you were thinking of, and why it came close to breaking you? I suspect you were misunderstanding my intended message, and that the “mindset” you are imagining is pretty far from my own set of beliefs. Note that before I was not advocating anything; only stating an observation that most people don’t get much practice tackling hard problems, and that people with or without ADHD can have difficulty tackling hard problems. Do you think that is inaccurate? It seems pretty uncontroversial to me. I know a lot of people who have difficulty with hard problems, and some of them definitely don’t have ADHD. * * * I am taking care of a 3.5 year old full time, so I’ll give you some relevant examples from that context: If I try to read a book aloud which is much too hard for him (say a novel pitched at teenagers), he gets bored and wanders away. But his attention span, vocabulary, grammar, etc. are gradually improving, so the books he understands now (e.g. Pippi Longstocking, The Cricket in Times Square) are much more sophisticated than the books he could understand a year ago (e.g. Henry and Mudge, Frog and Toad), which are in turn much more sophisticated than the books he was interested in a year before that (e.g. Go Dog Go, The Very Hungry Caterpillar). If we try to work on some 1-player logic puzzle games, the ones that say “age 7+” on the box are currently too difficult for him and he gets bored/frustrated and wants to do something else. The ones that say “age 5+” are pretty good, and he can do them with some external help. The ones that say “age 3+” are getting to be easy by now, and he can do them independently. If we go out to practice balancing on a vehicle, a 2-wheeled scooter is now getting to be okay if we go carefully, but 6 months ago it was too difficult and therefore very frustrating. A year ago, he was just starting to figure out the (pedal-free) balance bike, and now he can zoom around on it. If I tried to get him to ride a skateboard I predict he would fall off and not want to try (heck, that’s probably what I would do if I tried to ride a skateboard). One of my son’s friends has no experience with a balance bike, and is embarrassed to try in front of anyone, because my son (who has more than a year of practice) can zoom all around, whereas any kid just starting finds it to be a great challenge. But the same kid can swing across the monkey bars, something my son cannot, because that’s something that boy has practiced for a few months. * * * Activities like writing computer programs, playing music, writing essays, playing sports, cooking, etc. are similar: they require many challenging skills which must be slowly built up over the course of years of practice, and are very daunting for someone who is unprepared. The way to get better at these is to start at your current level and practice, in a playful and low-pressure environment, slowly improving until you can handle high-level challenges. And the same is true of meta skills which apply to many domains like searching and reading academic literature in a field you are unfamiliar with, coming up with a few choices of high-level problem solving strategies and then picking one to apply, breaking the problem solving process down into smaller manageable chunks until you get down to a chunk small enough to just dive in, taking organized notes, trying many small examples when you don’t yet have a solid conceptual understanding, finding and tackling a simpler related problem instead, stopping occasionally while working to check if you’re making progress and if the current strategy still seems promising, recognizing that you are badly stuck and finding the right person to ask for help ...
eyelidlessness 7y ago
Looks like you posted while I was writing my response, and another has chimed in on this sub-thread. I expect a bunch of us will recognize ourselves a bit in this AskHN.
deleted 7y ago
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lovehashbrowns 7y ago
I am currently getting help with ADD and this is a similar situation to me as well. However, I was diagnosed because I'm trying to get help for insomnia. Specifically, I have a lot of trouble falling asleep. I'm just adding another data point in case anyone is relating to OP, the comment I replied to, AND has difficulty falling asleep. It's always good to have a clear picture of what your mental health is like.
- eru 7y ago
  I got diagnosed with ADHD as an adult. I also had sleep issues, but never bad enough to seek help for them. Fortunately, the ADHD meds fixed the sleep issues, too. Have you tried taking some L-Tryptophan in the evening? For some people it works wonders for sleep and mood. L-Tryptophan is an essential amino acid that you can buy over-the-counter. Your body needs it to make melatonin and serotonin amongst other things.
  - lovehashbrowns 7y ago
    My sleeping issues were never bad enough either until my team started having daily 9AM meetings. Ugh I haven't tried L-Tryptophan! But I'll give it a go. My medication hasn't really started taking effect yet but hopefully I don't have to take sleeping medication once it does. Thanks for the suggestion. :) Hopefully that helps also.
    - eru 7y ago
      L-Tryptophan is a pre-cursor to melatonin. See eg https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/07/10/melatonin-much-more-than-you-wanted-to-know/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/07/10/melatonin-much-more-th...
apostacy 7y ago
I highly recommend checking out this thread about stimulant medications: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16033574 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16033574 As someone who has ADHD and has taken stimulant medications for a long time, I would like to share my experience. There is a very faustian aspect of taking these medications. Don't think that you can change your brain chemistry and not change who you are. I would not have the career I have today without it. Before I started getting treated, I was barely supporting myself financially, and struggling to get through community college. I felt so powerless, while my peers rocketed ahead of me. After I started taking medication, I was able to take control of my life, and do things I had previously ruled out doing. I did great academically, and then made more money than I ever thought I would. It was such an amazing feeling to feel like I had been given a second chance at life. However, it changed me, and I lost something. I wonder what could have been. I remember the moment I noticed I was changed. For a year before I started taking it, I had been dating someone for over a year, and not once had we ever had a fight. But a month after I started taking adderall, I screamed at her when I got frustrated because she changed plans we had made. I was so horrified, and I wanted to stop taking it that day, when I still could. Our relationship didn't last three more months. I gradually lost touch with my old friends. I was only supposed to take it to get through college, but the choices I made on adderall were such that I chose a lifestyle that required it. I pushed myself really hard for years and I was able to prove that I wasn't a slacker or stupid; I got a fancy .edu email and coauthored scholarly papers and presented at conferences. I miss who I was before I started taking it. Things just didn't annoy me. I was so cool with stuff. I think I was much more emotionally resilient, and much better able to read people. Stimulant medications make me more "autistic", for lack of a better word. I think I have really regressed emotionally. I would strongly advise anyone who starts taking these medications to not lose touch with yourself. See a therapist, even if it does not seem necessary. Try to maintain relationships and keep yourself emotionally anchored. Give your soul room to breathe. Take emotional sabbaticals where you are able to ruminate on important decisions. Consider not taking your meds on the weekends. Listen to music and play video games, even if they don't seem to entertain you as much. I have a theory that your "right brain" still likes these things, but that your impulses for entertainment are just suppressed. As for me, I am seriously considering trying to live without these medications, or at least severely cut them back. Besides the problems that I talked about, there is also evidence that stimulant medications can reduce brain mass over the decades. I don't want to discourage anyone from doing the best for themselves, but everything has a cost. If you want to do well in college and build your career in your 20s, that is understandable. But keep yourself grounded.
eru 7y ago
There's an easy experiment OP can do: see if nicotine patches help. Nicotine is a safe stimulant that available over the counter; and works really well against ADHD and can help normal people too. Arguably much better than caffeine for the vast majority of people. See https://www.gwern.net/Nicotine https://www.gwern.net/Nicotine for details. One thing to keep in mind: stay away from smoking. That's vile and addictive.
- dlivingston 7y ago
  As someone who just quit nicotine (e-cigs/NRT/tobacco-free “dip”) after nearly a decade, stay away from it at all costs. Nicotine is a wonderful brain stimulant (nootropic), but it’s far too easy to become and stay addicted.
  - eru 7y ago
    Interesting. I only ever tried the patches on and off, and never had any problem stopping. The research that Gwern collected at https://www.gwern.net/Nicotine https://www.gwern.net/Nicotine seems similar. I never smoked or tried e-cigarettes, though. Smoking is awfully addictive. I tried half a nicotine gum once. But the stimulant hit was too much at once and made me nauseous for about half an hour. (Similar to eg the effects of way too much espresso, but with much shorter duration.) Did you ever smoke burnt tobacco? What was the process of quitting e-cigarettes (and the others you mention) like?
- xsys 7y ago
  Nicotine on its own is also addictive, though there's some evidence that it's less so without a MAOI (so that would include gum, patches, and vaping). I actually find that real cigarettes can help more than just nicotine alone, since there's a natural cadence to its use. So work for a couple hours, then take a 5-10m break, rinse and repeat. It naturally rewards yourself for work done as well as giving you time to process what was just completed and what needs to be done next. Also cigarettes help set the break time (when the cigarette is done you go inside) vs gum or patches or vaping where you can just keep doing it forever.

hsartoris 7y ago

Fellow ADHD sufferer here to second this. Thinking about ADHD as a deficit of motivation, which is much more accurate than an attention-oriented view, tends to clarify this sort of situation.

dvcrn 7y ago
Giving a third +1 here. I had (have) similar issues with motivation and got diagnosed with ADHD at age 25. I'd describe it as "a disability of knowing how to do something, but not actually doing it unless there are external consequences involved"
- ExtremisAndy 7y ago
  Oh wow... you just described me with frightening accuracy. I’ve never seen my issue described so clearly and concisely. Basically, if there aren’t negative consequences for me not completing a task, my brain simply never gets motivated. It’s almost as if my brain is saying: “meh... you don’t really have to do this... so go play on Facebook some more”. If I could resolve this issue which has plagued me for years, it would revolutionize my life and career.
  - dvcrn 7y ago
    When in doubt always best to talk to a doc. Best case you are completely fine, but doesn't hurt checking. (The irony is that people with ADHD are probably the least likely to get up by themselves and make an appointment given that there are no consequences of not doing it lol) ADHD is of course not just motivation but a spectrum of symptoms. I'd highly recommend listening to Dr. Russell Barkley talk about ADHD on this playlist - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg6cfsnmqyg&list=PLzBixSjmbc8eFl6UX5_wWGP8i0mAs-cvY&index=2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg6cfsnmqyg&list=PLzBixSjmbc... Watch from 1B onwards and see if you feel like it describes you
- thatsenough 7y ago
  How do you differentiate this from laziness/apathy?
  - twocats 7y ago
    Laziness and/or apathy are value judgments; they offer no useful insight into behaviour unless you believe that sin is a real thing.
    - thatsenough 7y ago
      Not really. You're choosing a definition those words that involves a value judgement.
  - internet_user 7y ago
    apathy can be part of dysexecutive syndromes, such as ADHD. To be pedantic, apathy is lack of emotion and interest. Often that is not the case in ADHD. The hallmark of that syndrome is the inability to follow through/self-regulate behavior/plan actions to achieve the objective they are interested in.
  - dvcrn 7y ago
    The feeling can feel similar which is probably why a lot of people think they are just lazy. But ADHD is more of a reduced / lack of self-drive combined with a self-regulation + internal prioritization problem. Maybe a bit like laziness but the feeling is multiplied. I of course have moments when I feel lazy and just don't want to do anything, but then there are the other moments when I want to do something, work on a project, practice a hobby but just don't. There is this disconnect, it's hard to explain Best to look at other key ADHD symptoms as well like emotional regulation, rejection sensitve dysphoria, focus, (mental) hyperactivity (= your brain can't just chill), the need to constantly do something, impulsiveness (like with money), etc etc etc. It's of course a spectrum and some people are worse in x while other people suffer more on y. Best to talk to a doc if it affects your life. Could be ADHD, could be something else. It's very common though so admitting that there might be a problem is the first step to getting better
kharak 7y ago
I have trouble focusing on work most of the time and lack the motivation for almost everything, unless not doing it would cause problems. But everything I've read about ADHD doesn't sound like a me at all. Never heard of your way of describing it though.
- dvcrn 7y ago
  I just posted a comment below that sounds like that - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22920256 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22920256 Adhd feels like knowing how to do something and knowing you should do it, but not actually doing it. It’s like your inner drive is very weak unless there is an external consequence involved, like a deadline. Dumb examples are - your homework unless the deadline comes closer - a amazon box that you know the contents of but currently don’t need it, so it stays packaged standing around until you need the item or the space - dishes - a todo list item that’s floating around for weeks that takes minutes to complete but has no deadline Then at other moments something just grabs your attention and it becomes the most important thing right now even if you should be doing something else. Like finding a new tool or programming language that you really want to use immediately, or randomly cleaning your entrance area NOW even though you should be leaving for the train to make a meeting.
  - kharak 7y ago
    Adhd feels like knowing how to do something and knowing you should do it, but not actually doing it. It’s like your inner drive is very weak unless there is an external consequence involved, like a deadline. Yes, that would be me. I know what I need to do in so many ways. But doing it? If it isn't a habit or some form of negative emotion forces me to do it, almost impossible. There are, of course, exceptions. But in general, absolutely. Homework Yes, same with tasks / Jira stories today. Amazon box There is a printer inside a box in my living room that I need to print a work related document. It's now there for like 8 days? My office wrote me, that they need that document and boy don't I care about it, as it is merely a formality. So yes, total check. Dishes See, this is why I'm not completely convinced ADHD matches me. I never leave dishes behind. When I'm done cooking, even before I take the first bite, the kitchen is in perfect condition. Vacuuming my room on the other hand... Todo lists I need them to be productive, but my personal todo list tends to remain on my whiteboard for weeks or months until I do everything possible in one rush. I guess that is also a match? Your last paragraph sounds like doing things compulsively, things that aren't important right now. That is also a no match for me. I get hyper focused from time to time, although that has gotten quit rare in recent years. But I've never not went to a meeting or something similar because of it. If I need to do something, if I start to feel negative about it, I'll get it done no matter what. I'd feel quite awkward not getting to meetings, so that doesn't happen. Maybe this is still a match? Edit: On the other hand, I should complete a Jira story right now. But now I'm here and listening to a ADD related talk from another comment. But I really should work on that story to finish it. But I kind of have an open deadline. But it gets steadily more embarrassing that I haven't finished it. Uh oh.
agumonkey 7y ago
Anybody feels that ADHD or similar issues are often a sign that you're not doing things that you need to to be happy ? Like running after something for the wrong reasons ? Kinda like Bukowski "don't try" ? ps: to explain more, there were times where a) I was slowly but surely inspired by a topic and would just keep wondering and thinking about it, 'hard' or not, it was similar to walking a mental park b) I was motivated by desires (greatness, potential financial gains, social status, some faith that the outcome would make me feel happy) but now my feelings about them have changed so it feels pointless. I feel a lot better when doing things that have no real goal but actually procure a lightweight joy. For instance, I used to equate more study to more possibilities and capacity to 1) create more (joy) 2) get a good job. But my experience was that these efforts weren't useful in reality. Even though I got some FP moocs, solved problems alone, I'm still stuck too often, and recruiters don't give a damn. It all erodes your happiness/ROI center.
- internet_user 7y ago
  Depression (and many other illnesses, autoimmune, hormonal deficiencies, sleep disorders, all kinds of dementia and other neurological illnesses) will produce a dysexecutive syndrome that's very similar, if not indisginuishable, from ADHD. In your specific case you may want to read up on something called "learned helplessness". Essentially you are being conditioned by failure to quit prematurely. That is different from ADHD. ADHD in itself is really a diagnosis of exclusion, where no clear cause can be found.
  - agumonkey 7y ago
    > Essentially you are being conditioned by failure to quit prematurely. Funny how my conclusions today are the opposite. I didn't quit early enough somehow. Well it's hard to tell, tbh, I've spent years learning hard stuff without any real benefit. So many a different course of action would make sense :)
  - eru 7y ago
    In practice, ADHD is what you have when stimulants make you get better. If your laundry lists of symptoms (depression, sleep disorders, lack of motivation etc) get better from stimulants, count yourself lucky. Stimulants work right away, if they work at all, and have few and relatively mild side-effects. Some of the side-effects, like weight loss, are even seen as welcome by many people. Others like having to pee more often and cold hands are relatively easy to deal with. For comparison, antidepressants take months to show even mild positive effects; and have major side-effects.
internet_user 7y ago
ADHD is best described as impaired self-directed behavior. The kernel of motivation may exist, but an ADHD victim would fail to follow through on that motivation, to their own detriment. Either due to lack of concentration, lack of planning, or lack of execution. Often all of the above. It is a general dysexecutive syndrome that that may impact all higher order cognitive functions. Motivation, on the other hand can also be impaired by depression (aka "learned helplessness" - which is not uncommon in ADHD), but that would not be ADHD in itself.

jacobolus 7y ago

Someone doesn’t have to have ADHD to shirk from hard problems. Expecting technical/intellectual problems to be easy to solve is something that is drilled into most people by the school system, which rarely if ever present problems that take more than a few minutes to solve, and pretty much never expect students to try tackling problems that require weeks of effort. The result is that when many people encounter a hard problem, if they can’t make progress after spending a bit of effort on it, they give up and conclude that either the problem is too hard or they are too stupid to keep going. There is probably an influence from inherent personality differences, but I would speculate that building up stamina for tackling hard problems comes down substantially to practice.

eyelidlessness 7y ago
> Someone doesn’t have to have ADHD to shirk from hard problems. At least 3-4 people with ADHD have already spotted the potential, and I expect that more will while the question is up. You're right that it doesn't have to be ADHD, but I don't really see the value in dismissing it either. Edit: > There is probably an influence from inherent personality differences, but I would speculate that building up stamina for tackling hard problems comes down substantially to practice. For those of us who do have a chemical imbalance, many of us have coping mechanisms which look a lot like building up this stamina. But it's important to understand that this can come very unnaturally for some people and be considerably more difficult and unstable.
organsnyder 7y ago
> There is probably an influence from inherent personality differences, but I would speculate that building up stamina for tackling hard problems comes down substantially to practice. I was diagnosed with ADHD my senior year of college. Before that, the mindset you're advocating got close to breaking me.
- jacobolus 7y ago
  My “mindset” (if you can call it that) is that most people don’t get much experience tackling hard problems, at least up through school. In light of that, what I would “advocate” is that people should try to get practice working on problems at their current level of stamina/ability (which might be very low), and slowly work their way up, instead of beating themselves up when a problem much more difficult than what they were used to seemed like an impossible challenge. Maybe you can elaborate about what “mindset” you were thinking of, and why it came close to breaking you? I suspect you were misunderstanding my intended message, and that the “mindset” you are imagining is pretty far from my own set of beliefs. Note that before I was not advocating anything; only stating an observation that most people don’t get much practice tackling hard problems, and that people with or without ADHD can have difficulty tackling hard problems. Do you think that is inaccurate? It seems pretty uncontroversial to me. I know a lot of people who have difficulty with hard problems, and some of them definitely don’t have ADHD. * * * I am taking care of a 3.5 year old full time, so I’ll give you some relevant examples from that context: If I try to read a book aloud which is much too hard for him (say a novel pitched at teenagers), he gets bored and wanders away. But his attention span, vocabulary, grammar, etc. are gradually improving, so the books he understands now (e.g. Pippi Longstocking, The Cricket in Times Square) are much more sophisticated than the books he could understand a year ago (e.g. Henry and Mudge, Frog and Toad), which are in turn much more sophisticated than the books he was interested in a year before that (e.g. Go Dog Go, The Very Hungry Caterpillar). If we try to work on some 1-player logic puzzle games, the ones that say “age 7+” on the box are currently too difficult for him and he gets bored/frustrated and wants to do something else. The ones that say “age 5+” are pretty good, and he can do them with some external help. The ones that say “age 3+” are getting to be easy by now, and he can do them independently. If we go out to practice balancing on a vehicle, a 2-wheeled scooter is now getting to be okay if we go carefully, but 6 months ago it was too difficult and therefore very frustrating. A year ago, he was just starting to figure out the (pedal-free) balance bike, and now he can zoom around on it. If I tried to get him to ride a skateboard I predict he would fall off and not want to try (heck, that’s probably what I would do if I tried to ride a skateboard). One of my son’s friends has no experience with a balance bike, and is embarrassed to try in front of anyone, because my son (who has more than a year of practice) can zoom all around, whereas any kid just starting finds it to be a great challenge. But the same kid can swing across the monkey bars, something my son cannot, because that’s something that boy has practiced for a few months. * * * Activities like writing computer programs, playing music, writing essays, playing sports, cooking, etc. are similar: they require many challenging skills which must be slowly built up over the course of years of practice, and are very daunting for someone who is unprepared. The way to get better at these is to start at your current level and practice, in a playful and low-pressure environment, slowly improving until you can handle high-level challenges. And the same is true of meta skills which apply to many domains like searching and reading academic literature in a field you are unfamiliar with, coming up with a few choices of high-level problem solving strategies and then picking one to apply, breaking the problem solving process down into smaller manageable chunks until you get down to a chunk small enough to just dive in, taking organized notes, trying many small examples when you don’t yet have a solid conceptual understanding, finding and tackling a simpler related problem instead, stopping occasionally while working to check if you’re making progress and if the current strategy still seems promising, recognizing that you are badly stuck and finding the right person to ask for help ...

eyelidlessness 7y ago

Looks like you posted while I was writing my response, and another has chimed in on this sub-thread. I expect a bunch of us will recognize ourselves a bit in this AskHN.

deleted 7y ago

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lovehashbrowns 7y ago

I am currently getting help with ADD and this is a similar situation to me as well. However, I was diagnosed because I'm trying to get help for insomnia. Specifically, I have a lot of trouble falling asleep. I'm just adding another data point in case anyone is relating to OP, the comment I replied to, AND has difficulty falling asleep. It's always good to have a clear picture of what your mental health is like.

eru 7y ago
I got diagnosed with ADHD as an adult. I also had sleep issues, but never bad enough to seek help for them. Fortunately, the ADHD meds fixed the sleep issues, too. Have you tried taking some L-Tryptophan in the evening? For some people it works wonders for sleep and mood. L-Tryptophan is an essential amino acid that you can buy over-the-counter. Your body needs it to make melatonin and serotonin amongst other things.
- lovehashbrowns 7y ago
  My sleeping issues were never bad enough either until my team started having daily 9AM meetings. Ugh I haven't tried L-Tryptophan! But I'll give it a go. My medication hasn't really started taking effect yet but hopefully I don't have to take sleeping medication once it does. Thanks for the suggestion. :) Hopefully that helps also.
  - eru 7y ago
    L-Tryptophan is a pre-cursor to melatonin. See eg https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/07/10/melatonin-much-more-than-you-wanted-to-know/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/07/10/melatonin-much-more-th...

apostacy 7y ago

I highly recommend checking out this thread about stimulant medications: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16033574 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16033574 As someone who has ADHD and has taken stimulant medications for a long time, I would like to share my experience. There is a very faustian aspect of taking these medications. Don't think that you can change your brain chemistry and not change who you are. I would not have the career I have today without it. Before I started getting treated, I was barely supporting myself financially, and struggling to get through community college. I felt so powerless, while my peers rocketed ahead of me. After I started taking medication, I was able to take control of my life, and do things I had previously ruled out doing. I did great academically, and then made more money than I ever thought I would. It was such an amazing feeling to feel like I had been given a second chance at life. However, it changed me, and I lost something. I wonder what could have been. I remember the moment I noticed I was changed. For a year before I started taking it, I had been dating someone for over a year, and not once had we ever had a fight. But a month after I started taking adderall, I screamed at her when I got frustrated because she changed plans we had made. I was so horrified, and I wanted to stop taking it that day, when I still could. Our relationship didn't last three more months. I gradually lost touch with my old friends. I was only supposed to take it to get through college, but the choices I made on adderall were such that I chose a lifestyle that required it. I pushed myself really hard for years and I was able to prove that I wasn't a slacker or stupid; I got a fancy .edu email and coauthored scholarly papers and presented at conferences. I miss who I was before I started taking it. Things just didn't annoy me. I was so cool with stuff. I think I was much more emotionally resilient, and much better able to read people. Stimulant medications make me more "autistic", for lack of a better word. I think I have really regressed emotionally. I would strongly advise anyone who starts taking these medications to not lose touch with yourself. See a therapist, even if it does not seem necessary. Try to maintain relationships and keep yourself emotionally anchored. Give your soul room to breathe. Take emotional sabbaticals where you are able to ruminate on important decisions. Consider not taking your meds on the weekends. Listen to music and play video games, even if they don't seem to entertain you as much. I have a theory that your "right brain" still likes these things, but that your impulses for entertainment are just suppressed. As for me, I am seriously considering trying to live without these medications, or at least severely cut them back. Besides the problems that I talked about, there is also evidence that stimulant medications can reduce brain mass over the decades. I don't want to discourage anyone from doing the best for themselves, but everything has a cost. If you want to do well in college and build your career in your 20s, that is understandable. But keep yourself grounded.

eru 7y ago

There's an easy experiment OP can do: see if nicotine patches help. Nicotine is a safe stimulant that available over the counter; and works really well against ADHD and can help normal people too. Arguably much better than caffeine for the vast majority of people. See https://www.gwern.net/Nicotine https://www.gwern.net/Nicotine for details. One thing to keep in mind: stay away from smoking. That's vile and addictive.

dlivingston 7y ago
As someone who just quit nicotine (e-cigs/NRT/tobacco-free “dip”) after nearly a decade, stay away from it at all costs. Nicotine is a wonderful brain stimulant (nootropic), but it’s far too easy to become and stay addicted.
- eru 7y ago
  Interesting. I only ever tried the patches on and off, and never had any problem stopping. The research that Gwern collected at https://www.gwern.net/Nicotine https://www.gwern.net/Nicotine seems similar. I never smoked or tried e-cigarettes, though. Smoking is awfully addictive. I tried half a nicotine gum once. But the stimulant hit was too much at once and made me nauseous for about half an hour. (Similar to eg the effects of way too much espresso, but with much shorter duration.) Did you ever smoke burnt tobacco? What was the process of quitting e-cigarettes (and the others you mention) like?
xsys 7y ago
Nicotine on its own is also addictive, though there's some evidence that it's less so without a MAOI (so that would include gum, patches, and vaping). I actually find that real cigarettes can help more than just nicotine alone, since there's a natural cadence to its use. So work for a couple hours, then take a 5-10m break, rinse and repeat. It naturally rewards yourself for work done as well as giving you time to process what was just completed and what needs to be done next. Also cigarettes help set the break time (when the cigarette is done you go inside) vs gum or patches or vaping where you can just keep doing it forever.