7 ms·

> You'll be amazed how good your memory will get without the crutch of sight That's all really interesting. I personally have a problem with my thoughts in tha

by hnick 7y ago

> You'll be amazed how good your memory will get without the crutch of sight That's all really interesting. I personally have a problem with my thoughts in that I need to "sound out" or read them aloud in my head. This sometimes really slows me down, I mull over a thought until it sounds right. Especially when I'm tired I can get stuck in a loop. And it applies when reading too, I can force myself to read faster but usually I slow down and hear every word out of habit. I know some people don't have this inner voice. I wonder if it means they can think more freely.

solarengineer 7y ago
I find myself going quieter when I read faster. I do take pauses to think through what I’ve just read. You may want to try separating reading and thinking, and see if that helps you no longer need to think aloud reach word.
Marsymars 7y ago
FYI that process is called "subvocalization" - I'm only passingly familiar, but if you search that term there's lots of literature about it.
- hnick 7y ago
  Yes that's the one, I forgot what it was called. Always found this part interesting (from the wiki): "This inner speech is characterized by minuscule movements in the larynx and other muscles involved in the articulation of speech. Most of these movements are undetectable (without the aid of machines) by the person who is reading."
  - baseonmars 7y ago
    Try gently pressing your finger against your larynx when you read in your head - you'll likely find you read faster - this works for me, although I tend not to bother.
    - hnick 7y ago
      Interesting tip, I will try it. The worst thing about the inner voice is it's not just when reading, it won't be quiet at bed time. And I have a tendency to complete thoughts as words. Even if I know where it is leading, and what the conclusion is, it feels like I have to see it through and phrase it correctly in my head. I feel very uncomfortable leaving it hanging.
      - cowb0yl0gic 7y ago
        Exactly. Sometimes I even feel compelled to complete the sentence more than once (as if I wasn't paying attention enough the first time, so I feel the need to say it again). I think there is a subtle difference between that and "reading without production" (when I try it, it feels more like skimming text; I have to really try to pay attention). To me, reading/inner-speaking feels like engaging with the text; to only be able to "see" words would be lifeless (I'm assuming that some/many/most people can do both).
aabbcc1241 7y ago
I also rely on the "inner voice" for reading and writing. But I can skip that when programming. I think it's related to how you learn that language in the early stage.
- Malp 7y ago
  Could you expand on how you skip it for programming?
  - aabbcc1241 7y ago
    When I am designing the solution, I still have the inner voice. But when I'm implementing in code, I can do it almost "brain-lessly", even fine when listening to music. I'm not sure how do I do that, but I guess because I do it a lot, so I can do it as familiar as walking? Edit: Maybe because I didn't learn programming by listening to teacher, instead I learn from books and trials. I guess it's more like walking / playing sport, you don't need explicit inner voice to guide your body movement.
milton0825 7y ago
I have this inner voice when reading English, which is my second language. However, if I am reading stuffs in Chinese, I can skim through without the inner voice.
- cowb0yl0gic 7y ago
  When I read Spanish (2nd language; not great at it) I sub-vocalize as I do in English. But if there is a long, complex word that I would have to laboriously "pronounce" (but I know exactly what it means ahead of time), I will treat it as a gestalt/symbol (so, it's like "cheating" on the vocalizing), so sub-vocalization isn't actually needed for comprehension, but I'm guessing is a parallel mental action/process (probably correlated with how we learn to read a language and personal characteristics). Maybe non-sub-vocalizing is really just suppressing this parallel processing workflow. (I'm wondering if people who "don't need to do this" could read backwords (accidental pun!) effectively.)
roganartu 7y ago
I can’t speak to physical blindness, but I have aphantasia[0] which basically means I cannot voluntarily invoke my minds eye. Up until I found out about it last year, I thought that “visualizing” things was a metaphor for thinking, as I didn’t realize people could actually see things without looking at them. There are varying degrees of aphantasia. For context, I am completely unable to “see” anything in my mind. I do not dream either. If I close my eyes and think of something, nothing happens visually, though I can more easily remember things about whatever it is. I would describe it more as complete emptiness, instead of darkness (as darkness implies there is something there at all). I have been like this since I was born. One thing that stood out to me in GPs comment was that programmers tend to visualize code to reason about it. I asked a bunch of my friends after finding out my minds eye is blind and they all said they do it at least sometimes, some of them do it constantly. I obviously don’t, but I can say that I have a very good memory (in general, but also for code), and often find myself capable of context switching between related bits of code faster than many of my peers. I rarely reach for a diagram for explanation, however I do use them very regularly for documentation and explaining designs because I find other people seem to be able to process that format better. I don’t know if my aphantasia contributes to any of this, these are just things I’ve noticed I’m good at. One thing I am terrible at, however, is design. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphantasia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphantasia
- malikolivier 7y ago
  Aphantasia is a condition I have never heard about. Your experience and the description on Wikipedia lets me think I was born like this as well. I had many arguments with my wife about how I did not have visual dreams and did not see anything when I close my eyes. When she says she sees stuff when she closes her eyes, I always assumed it was some sort of metaphor and it was usual for human beings not to see anything when their eyes are closed. I think when I "visualize" something, not limited to math and code, I do not see anything per se. Mostly I think my thoughts are directed graphs whose nodes are concepts I have in memory. May I ask how did you get a diagnosis? And did you learn anything of use thanks to this diagnosis?
  - hsrada 7y ago

by hnick 7y ago

solarengineer 7y ago

I find myself going quieter when I read faster. I do take pauses to think through what I’ve just read. You may want to try separating reading and thinking, and see if that helps you no longer need to think aloud reach word.

Marsymars 7y ago

FYI that process is called "subvocalization" - I'm only passingly familiar, but if you search that term there's lots of literature about it.

hnick 7y ago
Yes that's the one, I forgot what it was called. Always found this part interesting (from the wiki): "This inner speech is characterized by minuscule movements in the larynx and other muscles involved in the articulation of speech. Most of these movements are undetectable (without the aid of machines) by the person who is reading."
- baseonmars 7y ago
  Try gently pressing your finger against your larynx when you read in your head - you'll likely find you read faster - this works for me, although I tend not to bother.
  - hnick 7y ago
    Interesting tip, I will try it. The worst thing about the inner voice is it's not just when reading, it won't be quiet at bed time. And I have a tendency to complete thoughts as words. Even if I know where it is leading, and what the conclusion is, it feels like I have to see it through and phrase it correctly in my head. I feel very uncomfortable leaving it hanging.
    - cowb0yl0gic 7y ago
      Exactly. Sometimes I even feel compelled to complete the sentence more than once (as if I wasn't paying attention enough the first time, so I feel the need to say it again). I think there is a subtle difference between that and "reading without production" (when I try it, it feels more like skimming text; I have to really try to pay attention). To me, reading/inner-speaking feels like engaging with the text; to only be able to "see" words would be lifeless (I'm assuming that some/many/most people can do both).

aabbcc1241 7y ago

I also rely on the "inner voice" for reading and writing. But I can skip that when programming. I think it's related to how you learn that language in the early stage.

Malp 7y ago
Could you expand on how you skip it for programming?
- aabbcc1241 7y ago
  When I am designing the solution, I still have the inner voice. But when I'm implementing in code, I can do it almost "brain-lessly", even fine when listening to music. I'm not sure how do I do that, but I guess because I do it a lot, so I can do it as familiar as walking? Edit: Maybe because I didn't learn programming by listening to teacher, instead I learn from books and trials. I guess it's more like walking / playing sport, you don't need explicit inner voice to guide your body movement.

milton0825 7y ago

I have this inner voice when reading English, which is my second language. However, if I am reading stuffs in Chinese, I can skim through without the inner voice.

cowb0yl0gic 7y ago
When I read Spanish (2nd language; not great at it) I sub-vocalize as I do in English. But if there is a long, complex word that I would have to laboriously "pronounce" (but I know exactly what it means ahead of time), I will treat it as a gestalt/symbol (so, it's like "cheating" on the vocalizing), so sub-vocalization isn't actually needed for comprehension, but I'm guessing is a parallel mental action/process (probably correlated with how we learn to read a language and personal characteristics). Maybe non-sub-vocalizing is really just suppressing this parallel processing workflow. (I'm wondering if people who "don't need to do this" could read backwords (accidental pun!) effectively.)

roganartu 7y ago

I can’t speak to physical blindness, but I have aphantasia[0] which basically means I cannot voluntarily invoke my minds eye. Up until I found out about it last year, I thought that “visualizing” things was a metaphor for thinking, as I didn’t realize people could actually see things without looking at them. There are varying degrees of aphantasia. For context, I am completely unable to “see” anything in my mind. I do not dream either. If I close my eyes and think of something, nothing happens visually, though I can more easily remember things about whatever it is. I would describe it more as complete emptiness, instead of darkness (as darkness implies there is something there at all). I have been like this since I was born. One thing that stood out to me in GPs comment was that programmers tend to visualize code to reason about it. I asked a bunch of my friends after finding out my minds eye is blind and they all said they do it at least sometimes, some of them do it constantly. I obviously don’t, but I can say that I have a very good memory (in general, but also for code), and often find myself capable of context switching between related bits of code faster than many of my peers. I rarely reach for a diagram for explanation, however I do use them very regularly for documentation and explaining designs because I find other people seem to be able to process that format better. I don’t know if my aphantasia contributes to any of this, these are just things I’ve noticed I’m good at. One thing I am terrible at, however, is design. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphantasia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphantasia

malikolivier 7y ago
Aphantasia is a condition I have never heard about. Your experience and the description on Wikipedia lets me think I was born like this as well. I had many arguments with my wife about how I did not have visual dreams and did not see anything when I close my eyes. When she says she sees stuff when she closes her eyes, I always assumed it was some sort of metaphor and it was usual for human beings not to see anything when their eyes are closed. I think when I "visualize" something, not limited to math and code, I do not see anything per se. Mostly I think my thoughts are directed graphs whose nodes are concepts I have in memory. May I ask how did you get a diagnosis? And did you learn anything of use thanks to this diagnosis?
- hsrada 7y ago