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The problem with UBI is that we would turn it back into the welfare system we have now. Let's say we pass a truly universal basic income bill -- every person g

The problem with UBI is that we would turn it back into the welfare system we have now. Let's say we pass a truly universal basic income bill -- every person gets the same amount of money from the government, every month. It wouldn't take long before politicians propose giving more money to teachers and single mothers, or taking benefits away from convicted felons and sex offenders. Over time, bit by bit, we will entitle certain groups of people to more or less money than others. That will happen for the same reason our existing welfare system is the way it is - the voters believe that some people are more deserving of help than others. UBI would not remain universal, or basic, for very long. Given that we can't actually end up with a universal or basic income system, and that we will end up largely re-creating the same kinds of entitlements that characterize our current welfare systems, we might as well just improve and extend our current systems.

YinLuck- 7y ago
While this is always a threat, it does not mean it is inevitable. 1 person, 1 vote is a universal principle that seems to be holding across the [democratic] world. If anything, the momentum seems to be towards giving the vote back to the few who lose it (felons, etc)
Jedd 7y ago
> The problem with UBI is that we would turn it back into the welfare system we have now. That's not a problem with UBI. IMO that scenario is not likely, let alone guaranteed. I appreciate a pessimistic outlook as much as the next guy, but I don't think we should abandon UBI because you think it may change in the future.
- xsdklfsdfklj 7y ago
  the argument against it [1] is practically that if it is being pushed by the current system it is to benefit the current system. As in, "uber needs a safety net for their drivers" kinda of vision, which given the track record in the US is very likely. [1] https://jacobinmag.com/2017/12/universal-basic-income-inequality-work https://jacobinmag.com/2017/12/universal-basic-income-inequa...
  - Jedd 7y ago
    An interesting read, though it contains lots of generalisations and speculation presented as guaranteed outcomes. USA suffers from exceptionalism on a number of fronts -- it's unsurprising that claims of UBI (in)applicability is also on that list.
- twblalock 7y ago
  It is actually a problem with UBI: UBI does not line up with most people's beliefs about who deserves help, those beliefs are so powerful that they resulted in the creation of our existing welfare systems, and they aren't going to go away overnight.
  - Jedd 7y ago
    Even if your claim is true, that doesn't necessarily mean it's a problem with UBI -- it could be a problem with 'most people's beliefs'. Consider that 'most people', in the west at least, consider it normal to work ~8 hours a day, 5 days a week, with 1-4 weeks holiday per year, and do this for ~45 years. Where did all those numbers come from, and how long have we (as either a culture, or better yet as a species) thought this is normal? I don't think anyone's suggesting that most people are inclined or capable of changing their beliefs, or rather habits, overnight -- but that's also not a reason to abandon the consideration of UBI.

YinLuck- 7y ago

While this is always a threat, it does not mean it is inevitable. 1 person, 1 vote is a universal principle that seems to be holding across the [democratic] world. If anything, the momentum seems to be towards giving the vote back to the few who lose it (felons, etc)

Jedd 7y ago

> The problem with UBI is that we would turn it back into the welfare system we have now. That's not a problem with UBI. IMO that scenario is not likely, let alone guaranteed. I appreciate a pessimistic outlook as much as the next guy, but I don't think we should abandon UBI because you think it may change in the future.

xsdklfsdfklj 7y ago
the argument against it [1] is practically that if it is being pushed by the current system it is to benefit the current system. As in, "uber needs a safety net for their drivers" kinda of vision, which given the track record in the US is very likely. [1] https://jacobinmag.com/2017/12/universal-basic-income-inequality-work https://jacobinmag.com/2017/12/universal-basic-income-inequa...
- Jedd 7y ago
  An interesting read, though it contains lots of generalisations and speculation presented as guaranteed outcomes. USA suffers from exceptionalism on a number of fronts -- it's unsurprising that claims of UBI (in)applicability is also on that list.
twblalock 7y ago
It is actually a problem with UBI: UBI does not line up with most people's beliefs about who deserves help, those beliefs are so powerful that they resulted in the creation of our existing welfare systems, and they aren't going to go away overnight.
- Jedd 7y ago
  Even if your claim is true, that doesn't necessarily mean it's a problem with UBI -- it could be a problem with 'most people's beliefs'. Consider that 'most people', in the west at least, consider it normal to work ~8 hours a day, 5 days a week, with 1-4 weeks holiday per year, and do this for ~45 years. Where did all those numbers come from, and how long have we (as either a culture, or better yet as a species) thought this is normal? I don't think anyone's suggesting that most people are inclined or capable of changing their beliefs, or rather habits, overnight -- but that's also not a reason to abandon the consideration of UBI.