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You could have made the same comment 6 years ago, and behold, lots more people drive EVs today than 6 years ago. There's been a lot of progress in cajoling and

You could have made the same comment 6 years ago, and behold, lots more people drive EVs today than 6 years ago. There's been a lot of progress in cajoling and requiring apartment complexes and workplaces to install chargers, and Tesla has a lot more superchargers (mostly in mall parking lots) than they used to have. So it sure doesn't seem like there's any insurmountable problem involved that would cause us to stop promoting EVs. Meanwhile, hydrogen fuel cells haven't fallen in price like Toyota predicted, and so their hydrogen car is both expensive and low performance. Not a winning combination, even if it fuels up in 5 minutes.

erik_seaberg 6y ago
It's not impossible, but the network is still far from "already in place". Wikipedia says US plug-in EV ownership is only 3.4%, and those drivers had better all own houses with attached garages.
- greglindahl 6y ago
  OK, I guess it's a problem with no known solution, even though EV sales are climbing nicely. Me, I've owned an EV for 6 years, and live in an apartment. 6 years ago the pessimistic estimate was that what has actually happened today is impossible.
  - chiefalchemist 6y ago
    Time is the solution. Gas stations weren't everwhere overnight. To this day they require a tanker fuel truck to deliver more inventory. On the other hand, the network for electricity is already in place. Distribution and refilling are "automated." EV needs a bit more time. The stars are there. They will alight soon enough.
    - erik_seaberg 6y ago
      This. I was responding to > filling network is already in place when the last mile needs a couple hundred million charging points (with grid to supply them concurrently) and so far building them out has barely started. This is the entire reason I'm still burning gasoline for a couple of years; I can't rely on finding a charger at our next apartment.
      - greglindahl 6y ago
        Every HN thread mentioning EVs has at least one person concerned because they personally can't charge a car at home. It rarely leads to good discussion.
      - chiefalchemist 6y ago
        Everyone's wants and needs are different. Some more fringe that others. This is part of traction and growth. Eventually, you'll be in the sweet spot. p.s. Prediction: Post-pandemic, lock-down aside, look for Whole Foods to add charging stations. It's not a wait to recharge if you're being productive otherwise. Perhaps WF already does?
        greglindahl 6y ago
        I'm guessing you don't live in urban California, where most grocery stores installed L2 chargers 5 years ago? They were intended for short-range EV charging, and most EVs aren't short range enough to find them useful. I rarely see anyone charging at the ones in Palo Alto. Some Tesla Superchargers are near grocery stores, that's a pretty nice combination. I do have one friend who hasn't bothered to install a home charger because she can use the supercharger next to her favorite grocery store.
Taniwha 6y ago
We bought a house recently, one of our requirements was "somewhere to plug in the Leaf", it wasn't hard, about half the places we found met that requirement (we didn't require actual power points to be in place - note at 240v a Leaf fast charge isn't required, it happily charges overnight during the cheap off-peak period)
Hypx 6y ago
I’d say you just aren’t paying attention to the gains being made in fuel cell technology. A lot of people on this website are really oblivious to this, so you’re not alone. The 2021 Mirai using only 10 grams of platinum. Although they haven’t spoken much about pricing, it’s pretty obvious this is going to be a cost effective car to manufacture. Certainly, it’s going to be a lot cheaper to produce than a car with 600kg of batteries. The upcoming BMW X5 Hydrogen is going to have 370 hp. I’d say that’s plenty.
- greglindahl 6y ago
  Uh, OK. We're N years into the Hydrogen Revolution and the only problem is that people are ignorant? It was the 2017 Mirai that was supposed to be powerful and cheap. Now it's 2021. The old model had 151 hp. The new one has... ? neither a price nor a performance? The low end gas X5 has 335-456hp. So far the BEVs that have sold well have much higher performance than the minimum.
  - Hypx 6y ago
    It's not a function of time but rather progress. Since there has been significant progress (mostly ignored by the tech community), the commonly used arguments against hydrogen are now wrong. They haven't announced those numbers yet. We know BMW is building an X5 with 368hp using Toyota's fuel cell stack: https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/bmws-hydrogen-x5-will-produce-368bhp https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/bmws-hydrogen-x5-w... So we should be reasonably sure the new Mirai is going to be much faster than the first. It's also going to have around 400 miles of range and will be much bigger and more luxurious. We haven't heard about pricing yet, but from a production standpoint Toyota has talked extensively about how much cheaper it is to make.

erik_seaberg 6y ago

It's not impossible, but the network is still far from "already in place". Wikipedia says US plug-in EV ownership is only 3.4%, and those drivers had better all own houses with attached garages.

greglindahl 6y ago
OK, I guess it's a problem with no known solution, even though EV sales are climbing nicely. Me, I've owned an EV for 6 years, and live in an apartment. 6 years ago the pessimistic estimate was that what has actually happened today is impossible.
- chiefalchemist 6y ago
  Time is the solution. Gas stations weren't everwhere overnight. To this day they require a tanker fuel truck to deliver more inventory. On the other hand, the network for electricity is already in place. Distribution and refilling are "automated." EV needs a bit more time. The stars are there. They will alight soon enough.
  - erik_seaberg 6y ago
    This. I was responding to > filling network is already in place when the last mile needs a couple hundred million charging points (with grid to supply them concurrently) and so far building them out has barely started. This is the entire reason I'm still burning gasoline for a couple of years; I can't rely on finding a charger at our next apartment.
    - greglindahl 6y ago
      Every HN thread mentioning EVs has at least one person concerned because they personally can't charge a car at home. It rarely leads to good discussion.
    - chiefalchemist 6y ago
      Everyone's wants and needs are different. Some more fringe that others. This is part of traction and growth. Eventually, you'll be in the sweet spot. p.s. Prediction: Post-pandemic, lock-down aside, look for Whole Foods to add charging stations. It's not a wait to recharge if you're being productive otherwise. Perhaps WF already does?
      - greglindahl 6y ago
        I'm guessing you don't live in urban California, where most grocery stores installed L2 chargers 5 years ago? They were intended for short-range EV charging, and most EVs aren't short range enough to find them useful. I rarely see anyone charging at the ones in Palo Alto. Some Tesla Superchargers are near grocery stores, that's a pretty nice combination. I do have one friend who hasn't bothered to install a home charger because she can use the supercharger next to her favorite grocery store.

Taniwha 6y ago

We bought a house recently, one of our requirements was "somewhere to plug in the Leaf", it wasn't hard, about half the places we found met that requirement (we didn't require actual power points to be in place - note at 240v a Leaf fast charge isn't required, it happily charges overnight during the cheap off-peak period)

Hypx 6y ago

I’d say you just aren’t paying attention to the gains being made in fuel cell technology. A lot of people on this website are really oblivious to this, so you’re not alone. The 2021 Mirai using only 10 grams of platinum. Although they haven’t spoken much about pricing, it’s pretty obvious this is going to be a cost effective car to manufacture. Certainly, it’s going to be a lot cheaper to produce than a car with 600kg of batteries. The upcoming BMW X5 Hydrogen is going to have 370 hp. I’d say that’s plenty.

greglindahl 6y ago
Uh, OK. We're N years into the Hydrogen Revolution and the only problem is that people are ignorant? It was the 2017 Mirai that was supposed to be powerful and cheap. Now it's 2021. The old model had 151 hp. The new one has... ? neither a price nor a performance? The low end gas X5 has 335-456hp. So far the BEVs that have sold well have much higher performance than the minimum.
- Hypx 6y ago
  It's not a function of time but rather progress. Since there has been significant progress (mostly ignored by the tech community), the commonly used arguments against hydrogen are now wrong. They haven't announced those numbers yet. We know BMW is building an X5 with 368hp using Toyota's fuel cell stack: https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/bmws-hydrogen-x5-will-produce-368bhp https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/bmws-hydrogen-x5-w... So we should be reasonably sure the new Mirai is going to be much faster than the first. It's also going to have around 400 miles of range and will be much bigger and more luxurious. We haven't heard about pricing yet, but from a production standpoint Toyota has talked extensively about how much cheaper it is to make.