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So this is a genuinely surprising attitude to me. You appreciate the software features and hardware stability of a platform, yet you do not want the creators to

by doteka 6y ago

So this is a genuinely surprising attitude to me. You appreciate the software features and hardware stability of a platform, yet you do not want the creators to be paid for their work? I mean, it must be obvious that doing these things well apparently costs tons of man-hours and someone needs to be compensated for it? How do you maintain that degree of cognitive dissonance?

derefr 6y ago
> you do not want the creators to be paid for their work? Er, no, likely more like "I have what hardware I have, and zero money to buy better. I would like to find the way to tune my existing hardware [e.g. by installing different operating systems] to give me the best possible experience that I can without putting any money into it, because I don't have any. When I have money, then I'll actually buy the thing I think is the best; but for now, a simulacra of it will have to suffice." You know, the same reason college students pirate Photoshop instead of using GIMP.
- danieldk 6y ago
  It's a shame that they do not have a cheap baseline Mac anymore. When I was in college, I bought my first Mac (2007). I didn't have a lot of money, but I bought a Mac Mini for 499 Euro or thereabouts. It was also relatively cheap to upgrade memory afterwards. I actually bought the Mac Mini because my brother and I were experimenting with Hackintosh. It didn't work on my computer, but it did work (somewhat) on his Dell laptop and he was raving about it. With the Macbook Air 2020, they finally have a laptop that I can recommend again and isn't much more expensive than the MacBook I bought later in 2007 (which was a base model white MacBook, just above 1000 Euro).
  - read_if_gay_ 6y ago
    The new Mac mini is a decent machine too and while it’s not quite at 500€ it’s still relatively cheap. I was considering buying that thing but before that decided to see if I could get macOS running on my old desktop, which turned out surprisingly well. Basically everything except sleep and WiFi works. I’ve now ordered a compatible WiFi card (my dorm doesn’t have ethernet) off AliExpress for 50 dollars. That should be it for a usable Mac workstation. The Hackintosh experiment ended up saving me a few hundred euros.
Wowfunhappy 6y ago
I don't disagree with this sentiment, but Apple laptops can be limiting in a lot of ways: * Want a keyboard with more travel? (Or, until recently, one that just won't break.) Too bad. * Want USB A ports? Better track down a 2015 MBP. * Want a touch screen? Go buy an iPad. So, basically the same reasons you'd want to build a Hackintosh desktop. Back when OS X releases were sold, though, I always made a point of buying and using a physical disc. I'm sure they weren't priced to truly cover development costs, but I felt like I was doing something.
- greendave 6y ago
  Everybody has their pet peeves. Mine is upgradeability. You can't get a Mac laptop where everything isn't soldered in. You can't get a Mac desktop with built-in expansion options under $6k. I don't begrudge Apple their design choices. I'm even willing to pay a substantial markup for their hardware. But deliberately crippling systems to prevent them from remaining useful over the long-haul is really unfortunate and wasteful.
throwlaplace 6y ago
lol at the accusatory and indignant tone. 1. apple is a hardware company not a software company. to wit: they do not sell mac os and if they did i might buy it. 2. i don't care a lick about any other features or "stability" (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22845629 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22845629). i simply said that i appreciated the workspaces feature. can i buy this feature ala carte? i would gladly. can i pay the devs that built it for their work? i would gladly. 3. i maintain my cognitive dissonance the same way you do when paying a 2x markup for commodity hardware. edit: man every day i can't help but feel more and more that people in tech (at least as this site reflects) are some of the most self-righteous.
- mwcampbell 6y ago
  I'm with doteka on this. I think techie entitlement is a bigger problem than self-righteousness. As Kyle Mitchell (kemitchell on HN) put it recently in his essay "No Thanks" [1]: > From outside software looking in, “software freedom” walks and talks a lot more like “coder entitlement” or “coder privilege”. In short, a hacker on a tear should never hear the word “no”. Not when breaking into offices to steal parts for a train set. Not when contending with a printer they didn’t develop or pay for. Not when building the next hot web or mobile app … again. Not when building a war cloud or optimizing a baby-photo reinforcement schedule for grandma. Do we not realize how entitled and selfish we are? And no, I've never done a hackintosh, either virtual or physical. [1]: https://writing.kemitchell.com/2020/04/17/No-Thanks.html https://writing.kemitchell.com/2020/04/17/No-Thanks.html
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - throwlaplace 6y ago
    >Do we not realize how entitled and selfish we are? jesus christ what are you talking about. i should feel morally obligated to a corporation? or maybe tim cook himself? this isn't a moral quandary or question and never will be. you people have deeply internalized a relationship to money and corporations that is perverse. like any good business person would say: it's not personal it's business - if they want to prevent me from using their software in a way that violates the EULA or whatever then cool they can try to stop me (note: they have in the past and will continue into the future and so the world will turn). re those poor poor apple engineers: apple's market cap is 1.24T (that's a capital T for trillion). oh no will someone please think of them and their margins! i'm (100-epsilon)% sure that not a single apple engineer will ever suffer any hardship from a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a percent of their customer/user base building hackintoshes.
kick 6y ago
Apple is a pile of cash that has a few developers on hire. Most of the developers who made the Mac really great left Apple years ago, and the Mac's been a third-class citizen at Apple for over half a decade. Some guy deciding not to pay for Mac OS, for whatever reason, isn't going to break the bank at Apple. Apple could make nothing from the Mac and it'd still be more than worth it for them to continue maintaining it because of the benefits it brings to their mobile ecosystem.

by doteka 6y ago

derefr 6y ago

> you do not want the creators to be paid for their work? Er, no, likely more like "I have what hardware I have, and zero money to buy better. I would like to find the way to tune my existing hardware [e.g. by installing different operating systems] to give me the best possible experience that I can without putting any money into it, because I don't have any. When I have money, then I'll actually buy the thing I think is the best; but for now, a simulacra of it will have to suffice." You know, the same reason college students pirate Photoshop instead of using GIMP.

danieldk 6y ago
It's a shame that they do not have a cheap baseline Mac anymore. When I was in college, I bought my first Mac (2007). I didn't have a lot of money, but I bought a Mac Mini for 499 Euro or thereabouts. It was also relatively cheap to upgrade memory afterwards. I actually bought the Mac Mini because my brother and I were experimenting with Hackintosh. It didn't work on my computer, but it did work (somewhat) on his Dell laptop and he was raving about it. With the Macbook Air 2020, they finally have a laptop that I can recommend again and isn't much more expensive than the MacBook I bought later in 2007 (which was a base model white MacBook, just above 1000 Euro).
- read_if_gay_ 6y ago
  The new Mac mini is a decent machine too and while it’s not quite at 500€ it’s still relatively cheap. I was considering buying that thing but before that decided to see if I could get macOS running on my old desktop, which turned out surprisingly well. Basically everything except sleep and WiFi works. I’ve now ordered a compatible WiFi card (my dorm doesn’t have ethernet) off AliExpress for 50 dollars. That should be it for a usable Mac workstation. The Hackintosh experiment ended up saving me a few hundred euros.

Wowfunhappy 6y ago

I don't disagree with this sentiment, but Apple laptops can be limiting in a lot of ways: * Want a keyboard with more travel? (Or, until recently, one that just won't break.) Too bad. * Want USB A ports? Better track down a 2015 MBP. * Want a touch screen? Go buy an iPad. So, basically the same reasons you'd want to build a Hackintosh desktop. Back when OS X releases were sold, though, I always made a point of buying and using a physical disc. I'm sure they weren't priced to truly cover development costs, but I felt like I was doing something.

greendave 6y ago
Everybody has their pet peeves. Mine is upgradeability. You can't get a Mac laptop where everything isn't soldered in. You can't get a Mac desktop with built-in expansion options under $6k. I don't begrudge Apple their design choices. I'm even willing to pay a substantial markup for their hardware. But deliberately crippling systems to prevent them from remaining useful over the long-haul is really unfortunate and wasteful.

throwlaplace 6y ago

lol at the accusatory and indignant tone. 1. apple is a hardware company not a software company. to wit: they do not sell mac os and if they did i might buy it. 2. i don't care a lick about any other features or "stability" (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22845629 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22845629). i simply said that i appreciated the workspaces feature. can i buy this feature ala carte? i would gladly. can i pay the devs that built it for their work? i would gladly. 3. i maintain my cognitive dissonance the same way you do when paying a 2x markup for commodity hardware. edit: man every day i can't help but feel more and more that people in tech (at least as this site reflects) are some of the most self-righteous.

mwcampbell 6y ago
I'm with doteka on this. I think techie entitlement is a bigger problem than self-righteousness. As Kyle Mitchell (kemitchell on HN) put it recently in his essay "No Thanks" [1]: > From outside software looking in, “software freedom” walks and talks a lot more like “coder entitlement” or “coder privilege”. In short, a hacker on a tear should never hear the word “no”. Not when breaking into offices to steal parts for a train set. Not when contending with a printer they didn’t develop or pay for. Not when building the next hot web or mobile app … again. Not when building a war cloud or optimizing a baby-photo reinforcement schedule for grandma. Do we not realize how entitled and selfish we are? And no, I've never done a hackintosh, either virtual or physical. [1]: https://writing.kemitchell.com/2020/04/17/No-Thanks.html https://writing.kemitchell.com/2020/04/17/No-Thanks.html
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- throwlaplace 6y ago
  >Do we not realize how entitled and selfish we are? jesus christ what are you talking about. i should feel morally obligated to a corporation? or maybe tim cook himself? this isn't a moral quandary or question and never will be. you people have deeply internalized a relationship to money and corporations that is perverse. like any good business person would say: it's not personal it's business - if they want to prevent me from using their software in a way that violates the EULA or whatever then cool they can try to stop me (note: they have in the past and will continue into the future and so the world will turn). re those poor poor apple engineers: apple's market cap is 1.24T (that's a capital T for trillion). oh no will someone please think of them and their margins! i'm (100-epsilon)% sure that not a single apple engineer will ever suffer any hardship from a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a percent of their customer/user base building hackintoshes.

kick 6y ago

Apple is a pile of cash that has a few developers on hire. Most of the developers who made the Mac really great left Apple years ago, and the Mac's been a third-class citizen at Apple for over half a decade. Some guy deciding not to pay for Mac OS, for whatever reason, isn't going to break the bank at Apple. Apple could make nothing from the Mac and it'd still be more than worth it for them to continue maintaining it because of the benefits it brings to their mobile ecosystem.