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I’ve always thought the distribution issue it’s the largest problem for alternative fuel vehicles. Driving to Los Angeles from San Francisco is extremely diffi

I’ve always thought the distribution issue it’s the largest problem for alternative fuel vehicles. Driving to Los Angeles from San Francisco is extremely difficult for either a fuel cell or ev vehicle (that’s not a Tesla, and it’s also true for cng vehicles). This is admittedly not a daily use case, but highlights the issues with refueling. It’s hard to see either technology being our primary transportation mode without solving some of this. EVs have an advantage for fuel availability, but issues around fueling time.

logical42 6y ago
There are enough CNG stations to drive from SF to LA as long as you fill up appropriately.
- toast0 6y ago
  I had researched buying a CNG car in the LA area and bringing it back to San Jose. Reliable miles per tank data was tough to come by, but it seemed like if you couldn't use PG&E stations to fill (because it requires pre-registration, and a certified inspection), you wouldn't be able to take the most direct route. That was for a crown victoria/lincoln town car though. I don't know if the civic's get more miles per tank.
halfdan 6y ago
I think there's a common misconception in your argument. Even without a full distribution network it might be a viable solution. Most of us use our cars for our daily commute, grocery shopping and other things within a fairly small radius. The few times we would need to drive the SF->LA distance you can easily take a rental. The mistake is to assume that we would use "alternative fuel" vehicles the same way we would our petrol cars.
- greglindahl 6y ago
  I don't think there's an assumption there. The alternative fuel cars that sell well are the long-range ones. Sure, people mostly drive them locally, but it appears to be the case that there's comfort in knowing that they can also go long distance.
  - rootusrootus 6y ago
    I think 300 miles is a realistic minimum for viable EVs. At least in America. Because honestly, almost nobody gets anywhere near that except when they're trying to win Internet points. A 300 mile Tesla Model 3, depending on trim, is more realistically a 150-200 mile car, and some days won't even make it that far. Source: I own a Tesla Model 3 Performance. For efficiency, the worst of them. Love the car, but saying it has 300 miles of range feels pretty dishonest.
- entee 6y ago
  I don’t see how that’s a mistake at all from a customer perspective. You’re asking a consumer to buy something very expensive that in the past could do a whole bunch of things like go long distances, but now does less of those things. In exchange you provide them with more fuel efficiency? Maybe a good feeling about being environmentally sound? That’s not a good trade off in most customer’s minds. Your response seems to be, “then rent for those occasions.” But that means the customer has to change their mindset, break long established habits. That’s a big ask. If you’re Tesla you build a car that is better in every way than an old car EXCEPT mildly less convenient on range. Clearly that has legs, but lots of Tesla owners have a house/garage, and lots have another car, it’s not viable for a lot of people. Hopefully alternative vehicles will improve to the point where there are no compromises, but until then I think it’s a fools errand to argue customers should just change how they think. They won’t unless forced to by outside pressures such as regulation or a massive change to the pricing structure of owning a regular car.
goodcanadian 6y ago
I was surprised by your assertion that it would be difficult to drive an EV (non-Tesla) from LA to SF, so I did a quick search. It appears that there are regular charge points along I-5. I wouldn't be worried about it at all.
- greglindahl 6y ago
  I'm not an expert in non-Tesla L3 chargers, but this thing I found with a little Googling appears to give locations: http://www.westcoastgreenhighway.com/electrichighway.htm http://www.westcoastgreenhighway.com/electrichighway.htm
  - clouddrover 6y ago
    Some better charger resources: https://www.electrifyamerica.com/locate-charger https://www.electrifyamerica.com/locate-charger https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/electricity_locations.html#/find/nearest?fuel=ELEC https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/electricity_locations.html#/fi... https://www.plugshare.com/ https://www.plugshare.com/ https://abetterrouteplanner.com/ https://abetterrouteplanner.com/ https://www.petro-canada.ca/en/personal/fuel/canadas-electric-highway https://www.petro-canada.ca/en/personal/fuel/canadas-electri...
woodandsteel 6y ago
The total number of rapid charging stations is large and is increasing rapidly, while the total number of hydrogen is small and increasing slowly. It is quite certain this state of affairs is going to continue in the future, until eventually there are enough charging stations for everyone to go electric.
- magicalhippo 6y ago
  Gas stations here in Norway haven't primarily been about selling gas for quite a while, and most want to continue to get people to buy hot dogs, hamburgers, sodas and candy in the future. So they're installing fast chargers as well...
  - fpoling 6y ago
    Except almost all fast charging stations on various Bergen-Oslo roads in Norway are not at the gas-stations. They are at the back of motels, souvenir shops, sometimes literally in the middle of nowhere with no shops or any other facilities to spend money- just a small parking place near mountain road.
    - magicalhippo 6y ago
      Installing != installed. Circle-K seems to see what's on the horizon, I'm guessing the others have plans as well. https://www.dinbedrift.no/forste-i-verden-circle-k-erstatter-drivstoffpumper-med-elbilladere/ https://www.dinbedrift.no/forste-i-verden-circle-k-erstatter...
clouddrover 6y ago
> Driving to Los Angeles from San Francisco is extremely difficult for either a fuel cell or ev vehicle (that’s not a Tesla, and it’s also true for cng vehicles). Maybe true for hydrogen, not so true for BEVs. There are plenty of CCS charging locations in the US and California in particular has many of them: https://www.electrifyamerica.com/locate-charger https://www.electrifyamerica.com/locate-charger https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/electricity_locations.html#/find/nearest?fuel=ELEC https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/electricity_locations.html#/fi... You can try out routes using Plug Share and A Better Route Planner: https://abetterrouteplanner.com/ https://abetterrouteplanner.com/ https://www.plugshare.com/ https://www.plugshare.com/ San Francisco to Los Angeles is an easy drive in a Chevy Bolt, for example.

logical42 6y ago

There are enough CNG stations to drive from SF to LA as long as you fill up appropriately.

toast0 6y ago
I had researched buying a CNG car in the LA area and bringing it back to San Jose. Reliable miles per tank data was tough to come by, but it seemed like if you couldn't use PG&E stations to fill (because it requires pre-registration, and a certified inspection), you wouldn't be able to take the most direct route. That was for a crown victoria/lincoln town car though. I don't know if the civic's get more miles per tank.

halfdan 6y ago

I think there's a common misconception in your argument. Even without a full distribution network it might be a viable solution. Most of us use our cars for our daily commute, grocery shopping and other things within a fairly small radius. The few times we would need to drive the SF->LA distance you can easily take a rental. The mistake is to assume that we would use "alternative fuel" vehicles the same way we would our petrol cars.

greglindahl 6y ago
I don't think there's an assumption there. The alternative fuel cars that sell well are the long-range ones. Sure, people mostly drive them locally, but it appears to be the case that there's comfort in knowing that they can also go long distance.
- rootusrootus 6y ago
  I think 300 miles is a realistic minimum for viable EVs. At least in America. Because honestly, almost nobody gets anywhere near that except when they're trying to win Internet points. A 300 mile Tesla Model 3, depending on trim, is more realistically a 150-200 mile car, and some days won't even make it that far. Source: I own a Tesla Model 3 Performance. For efficiency, the worst of them. Love the car, but saying it has 300 miles of range feels pretty dishonest.
entee 6y ago
I don’t see how that’s a mistake at all from a customer perspective. You’re asking a consumer to buy something very expensive that in the past could do a whole bunch of things like go long distances, but now does less of those things. In exchange you provide them with more fuel efficiency? Maybe a good feeling about being environmentally sound? That’s not a good trade off in most customer’s minds. Your response seems to be, “then rent for those occasions.” But that means the customer has to change their mindset, break long established habits. That’s a big ask. If you’re Tesla you build a car that is better in every way than an old car EXCEPT mildly less convenient on range. Clearly that has legs, but lots of Tesla owners have a house/garage, and lots have another car, it’s not viable for a lot of people. Hopefully alternative vehicles will improve to the point where there are no compromises, but until then I think it’s a fools errand to argue customers should just change how they think. They won’t unless forced to by outside pressures such as regulation or a massive change to the pricing structure of owning a regular car.

goodcanadian 6y ago

I was surprised by your assertion that it would be difficult to drive an EV (non-Tesla) from LA to SF, so I did a quick search. It appears that there are regular charge points along I-5. I wouldn't be worried about it at all.

greglindahl 6y ago
I'm not an expert in non-Tesla L3 chargers, but this thing I found with a little Googling appears to give locations: http://www.westcoastgreenhighway.com/electrichighway.htm http://www.westcoastgreenhighway.com/electrichighway.htm
- clouddrover 6y ago
  Some better charger resources: https://www.electrifyamerica.com/locate-charger https://www.electrifyamerica.com/locate-charger https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/electricity_locations.html#/find/nearest?fuel=ELEC https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/electricity_locations.html#/fi... https://www.plugshare.com/ https://www.plugshare.com/ https://abetterrouteplanner.com/ https://abetterrouteplanner.com/ https://www.petro-canada.ca/en/personal/fuel/canadas-electric-highway https://www.petro-canada.ca/en/personal/fuel/canadas-electri...

woodandsteel 6y ago

The total number of rapid charging stations is large and is increasing rapidly, while the total number of hydrogen is small and increasing slowly. It is quite certain this state of affairs is going to continue in the future, until eventually there are enough charging stations for everyone to go electric.

magicalhippo 6y ago
Gas stations here in Norway haven't primarily been about selling gas for quite a while, and most want to continue to get people to buy hot dogs, hamburgers, sodas and candy in the future. So they're installing fast chargers as well...
- fpoling 6y ago
  Except almost all fast charging stations on various Bergen-Oslo roads in Norway are not at the gas-stations. They are at the back of motels, souvenir shops, sometimes literally in the middle of nowhere with no shops or any other facilities to spend money- just a small parking place near mountain road.
  - magicalhippo 6y ago
    Installing != installed. Circle-K seems to see what's on the horizon, I'm guessing the others have plans as well. https://www.dinbedrift.no/forste-i-verden-circle-k-erstatter-drivstoffpumper-med-elbilladere/ https://www.dinbedrift.no/forste-i-verden-circle-k-erstatter...

clouddrover 6y ago

> Driving to Los Angeles from San Francisco is extremely difficult for either a fuel cell or ev vehicle (that’s not a Tesla, and it’s also true for cng vehicles). Maybe true for hydrogen, not so true for BEVs. There are plenty of CCS charging locations in the US and California in particular has many of them: https://www.electrifyamerica.com/locate-charger https://www.electrifyamerica.com/locate-charger https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/electricity_locations.html#/find/nearest?fuel=ELEC https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/electricity_locations.html#/fi... You can try out routes using Plug Share and A Better Route Planner: https://abetterrouteplanner.com/ https://abetterrouteplanner.com/ https://www.plugshare.com/ https://www.plugshare.com/ San Francisco to Los Angeles is an easy drive in a Chevy Bolt, for example.