5 ms·

What Is Scuttlebutt?

50 points by bottle2 6y ago

socceroos 6y ago
Scuttlebutt is what you use until GnuNet goes stable. Just like Hurd.
- olah_1 6y ago
  GnuNet sounds really cool. I've been reading about it. Are there any alpha versions of app implementations? Anything that a user can try at all yet?
  - rambojazz 6y ago
    Gnunet has been in alpha for decades. You can install it from any OS package manager.
    - olah_1 6y ago
      Any idea why there's no usable app running on top of it yet? Even in alpha, it should be able to handle basic identity and message sending, right? Secushare still not a working app?
      - socceroos 6y ago
        CADET, the end-to-end data transfer system for GNUnet, still needs to go through some API changes before seeing a stable release. Building an app on top of it as it stands right now may be wasted effort. I'm keen to see it go stable.
abol3z 6y ago
The blog design is painful to read!
- aabbcc1241 6y ago
  The blog looks well on mobile screen
- TimJRobinson 6y ago
  How so? What Browser/OS/Resolution?
miohtama 6y ago
How does it compare to Mastodon or Diaspora?
- gwbas1c 6y ago
  When I last looked at Diaspora (many years ago,) it came across as an open source social network that you could clone and run yourself, and then there was a network of networks. So, you could run the Diaspora code on your own server and then your server was part of the network. If someone has a better answer than me, please upvote them. It's been years... In this case, one primary difference is that a lot of Scuttlebut logic runs in the client that you install on your computer. You just can't point a browser at someone's server running Scuttlebut Edit: (The difference is kind of like downloading a file in a browser vs downloading a file with a Bittorrent client.)
- vicheiJ2 6y ago
  Mastodon and Diaspora are federated softwares, which means there is still a server/client model, but many servers (a more well known example of federated decentralization is smtp). ssb (common short for secure-scuttlebutt) is fully decentralized, which means that there is no server/client anymore, everyone is a node (like the initial idea of bitcoin). I'm biased in favor of full decentralization, but here are the main differences I can think of : * federation tends to lead to centralization again, because everyone use the same server (like gmail for smtp) * full decentralization makes it easier to build custom software (you have access to the whole data, without being constrained by an api). But this is not true for ssb, because it's harder than it should to build software on top of it. * it's easier to change software with full decentralization, because you don't have an "account" owned by a given server (think: it's hard to migrate from a mail address to an other) * onboarding is more difficult with full decentralization, because you have no easy entrypoint like a server is
  - miohtama 6y ago
    Dose every node need a full copy of data?
- TimJRobinson 6y ago
basicplus2 6y ago
-Patchwork- (Windows, MacOS, Linux) Standalone, beginner-friendly social view of Scuttlebutt. Recommended for first-timers. -Patchbay- (Windows, MacOS, Linux) Bleeding-edge, tab-based interface with experimental features. -Manyverse- (Android) Off-grid mobile app, currently in beta. -Patchfox- (Firefox Add-on) A new way to access Scuttlebutt packaged as a Web Extension for Firefox. Needs you to run sbot, or have Patchwork/Patchbay running. https://scuttlebutt.nz/get-started/ https://scuttlebutt.nz/get-started/
- kseistrup 6y ago
  The is also Oasis, which is web-based and runs whereever nodejs runs. It has ssb-server builtin, so you needn't run sbot/ssb-server yourself. ⌘ https://github.com/fraction/oasis https://github.com/fraction/oasis Under heavy development, but works well and is easy to use.
upofadown 6y ago
That was mostly about what it wasn't. This might be a bit more to the point: * https://scuttlebutt.nz/about/ https://scuttlebutt.nz/about/ Added: I found this descriptive article that talks about how it works: * https://boingboing.net/2017/04/07/bug-in-tech-for-antipreppers.html https://boingboing.net/2017/04/07/bug-in-tech-for-antipreppe...
dorianmariefr 6y ago
cached version: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:K8ZviVxFPlkJ:https://adecentralizedworld.com/2020/03/what-is-scuttlebutt/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=fr https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:K8ZviV...
chrononaut 6y ago
One of the things I find most fascinating about this application and protocol is that information can be exchanged and updated without the Internet over USB[0] and the protocol is designed where it could be implemented to pass information over devices like goTenna.[1] [0] https://boingboing.net/2017/04/07/bug-in-tech-for-antipreppers.html https://boingboing.net/2017/04/07/bug-in-tech-for-antipreppe... [1] https://community.gotennamesh.com/t/using-gotenna-for-scuttlebutt-data-exchange/1592/7 https://community.gotennamesh.com/t/using-gotenna-for-scuttl...
arkanciscan 6y ago
I understand what scuttlebutt does. What I don't understand is why. What kind of information benefits from decentralization? The only answer I can think of is child porn.
- lowdose 6y ago
  You never benefited from a torrent? Never used popcorn time?
  - arkanciscan 6y ago
    So, it's just for illegal stuff?
    - black_puppydog 6y ago
      my gosh... yes, just like torrents are only good for illegal stuff... my goodness...
    - ChristianBundy 6y ago
      Of course not. The point (for me) is that it's truly owned by it's users and it never goes down.
- detaro 6y ago
  Anything you don't want to be at the whims of a central service shutting down/changing their policies/...? Using a system centered around identity and immutable records for illegal things would be quite stupid.
  - arkanciscan 6y ago
    I can already host my own blog and have it safe from the whims of a central service. I'd like to hear more about how this is tied to identify, but the immutability is my main concern with regard to illegal activity. Once your daughters nudes are leaked on scuttlebutt how do you get them taken down?
olah_1 6y ago
Wow, lots of scuttlebutt shilling going on lately. What's the status of "sameas" (multi-device identities) and off-chain feeds that allow for deletes/edits? The former is a massive usability concern and the latter is (ironically) a privacy concern. Also, why not use a ratchet system so a single leak doesn't make your whole archive of private messages go public?
- sylvain_kerkour 6y ago
  I would also really love to learn what SSBers have to say about this, these were my primary concerns after reading the spec.
  - ChristianBundy 6y ago
    I'm personally working on both of these problems. Multiple feeds are implementated in an Oasis PR, and multiple feed types are implemented in the protocol and Go implementation, but the JS implementation is still being worked on. Once we fix that we should be able to hold any append-only feed as a Scuttlebutt feed (e.g. a Git branch).
    - olah_1 6y ago
      To clarify, "multiple feed types" means immutable feeds and mutable feeds? As a user, how can I know which type of feed I'm posting to? Will clients just adopt the mutable feeds by default? Or will they allow you choose the type of feed you want?
      - ChristianBundy 6y ago
        Yep, sorry for the brevity -- I was on mobile. Right now the only valid message type is a JSON payload with both the content of the message and the signature embedded in the object. This has two problems: - The embedded signature is annoying because you have to surgically remove it before validating. - The embedded content is annoying because you can't delete a message without deleting the link from your signature chain. If we build validators that accept different message encodings, then we can end up with different types of feeds. Fixing the above is pretty simple: make both the signature and the content of the message appear adjacent to the the on-chain message. The signature authenticates the message, and the message references the content of the message. If you want to delete the content of the message, you can, and it doesn't require deleting the on-chain reference to its hash. Using different validators would also allow us to validate, say, Git commits, where any commit is valid as long as it contains a valid signature by the key we expect. Or maybe we validate Dat (hypercore) messages so that they're first-class citizens -- making SSB more of a meta-network for content signed with a trusted signature. My hunch is that interface developers will probably converge on a single Good Enough feed type for the application. My guess is that social network interfaces like Patchwork/Oasis will use something like GabbyGrove (CBOR + adjacent signatures and content), but that applications like Git-SSB will probably just use signed Git commits. Hard to say!
merricksb 6y ago
Related discussion earlier today: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22909984 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22909984 Previous related HN discussions: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16877603 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16877603 (2 years ago) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16273096 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16273096 (2 years ago) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20828356 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20828356 (8 months ago) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15890911 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15890911 (2 years ago)
sylvain_kerkour 6y ago
What happen if I receive message N+1 but not message N (due to gossiping)? Can I still read message N+1?
- black_puppydog 6y ago
  usually the gossip works in a way that you should receive each feed's messages in order. Essentially, your client will talk to a peer and say "I have everything up to message M from feed F, got news?" and then the peer will go "Oh, I'm caught up to message M!" and then your client will realize that N > M, and ask for the messages [M+1...N] in order. Of course, there are ways to mess this up if you try really hard. :P But to answer your question: Yes, you can read it. You won't be able to verify that it is part of an unbroken signature chain, but you will be able to verify that it was signed with the feed's private key.
- ChristianBundy 6y ago
  Yep, and your database will record that it's missing message N.
mint2 6y ago
The link is down I’m guessing it’s not the scuttle butt of the outdoor world. A Scuttle butt is the protective fabric put around a climbing harness when one is canyoneering and will be sliding down and scraping against abrasive material like sandstone.
TimJRobinson 6y ago
OP of the article here. Sorry the server got hugged to death, I launched the site a few weeks ago and wasn't expecting it to end up on the HN front page. It's back up on a better server now (and will be seeded to Scuttlebutt soon). Happy to answer any questions.
eschaton 6y ago
Other than the cryptography, how does Scuttlebutt really differ from UUCP?

50 points by bottle2 6y ago

socceroos 6y ago

Scuttlebutt is what you use until GnuNet goes stable. Just like Hurd.

olah_1 6y ago
GnuNet sounds really cool. I've been reading about it. Are there any alpha versions of app implementations? Anything that a user can try at all yet?
- rambojazz 6y ago
  Gnunet has been in alpha for decades. You can install it from any OS package manager.
  - olah_1 6y ago
    Any idea why there's no usable app running on top of it yet? Even in alpha, it should be able to handle basic identity and message sending, right? Secushare still not a working app?
    - socceroos 6y ago
      CADET, the end-to-end data transfer system for GNUnet, still needs to go through some API changes before seeing a stable release. Building an app on top of it as it stands right now may be wasted effort. I'm keen to see it go stable.

abol3z 6y ago

The blog design is painful to read!

aabbcc1241 6y ago
The blog looks well on mobile screen
TimJRobinson 6y ago
How so? What Browser/OS/Resolution?

miohtama 6y ago

How does it compare to Mastodon or Diaspora?

gwbas1c 6y ago
When I last looked at Diaspora (many years ago,) it came across as an open source social network that you could clone and run yourself, and then there was a network of networks. So, you could run the Diaspora code on your own server and then your server was part of the network. If someone has a better answer than me, please upvote them. It's been years... In this case, one primary difference is that a lot of Scuttlebut logic runs in the client that you install on your computer. You just can't point a browser at someone's server running Scuttlebut Edit: (The difference is kind of like downloading a file in a browser vs downloading a file with a Bittorrent client.)
vicheiJ2 6y ago
Mastodon and Diaspora are federated softwares, which means there is still a server/client model, but many servers (a more well known example of federated decentralization is smtp). ssb (common short for secure-scuttlebutt) is fully decentralized, which means that there is no server/client anymore, everyone is a node (like the initial idea of bitcoin). I'm biased in favor of full decentralization, but here are the main differences I can think of : * federation tends to lead to centralization again, because everyone use the same server (like gmail for smtp) * full decentralization makes it easier to build custom software (you have access to the whole data, without being constrained by an api). But this is not true for ssb, because it's harder than it should to build software on top of it. * it's easier to change software with full decentralization, because you don't have an "account" owned by a given server (think: it's hard to migrate from a mail address to an other) * onboarding is more difficult with full decentralization, because you have no easy entrypoint like a server is
- miohtama 6y ago
  Dose every node need a full copy of data?
TimJRobinson 6y ago

basicplus2 6y ago

-Patchwork- (Windows, MacOS, Linux) Standalone, beginner-friendly social view of Scuttlebutt. Recommended for first-timers. -Patchbay- (Windows, MacOS, Linux) Bleeding-edge, tab-based interface with experimental features. -Manyverse- (Android) Off-grid mobile app, currently in beta. -Patchfox- (Firefox Add-on) A new way to access Scuttlebutt packaged as a Web Extension for Firefox. Needs you to run sbot, or have Patchwork/Patchbay running. https://scuttlebutt.nz/get-started/ https://scuttlebutt.nz/get-started/

kseistrup 6y ago
The is also Oasis, which is web-based and runs whereever nodejs runs. It has ssb-server builtin, so you needn't run sbot/ssb-server yourself. ⌘ https://github.com/fraction/oasis https://github.com/fraction/oasis Under heavy development, but works well and is easy to use.

upofadown 6y ago

That was mostly about what it wasn't. This might be a bit more to the point: * https://scuttlebutt.nz/about/ https://scuttlebutt.nz/about/ Added: I found this descriptive article that talks about how it works: * https://boingboing.net/2017/04/07/bug-in-tech-for-antipreppers.html https://boingboing.net/2017/04/07/bug-in-tech-for-antipreppe...

dorianmariefr 6y ago

cached version: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:K8ZviVxFPlkJ:https://adecentralizedworld.com/2020/03/what-is-scuttlebutt/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=fr https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:K8ZviV...

chrononaut 6y ago

One of the things I find most fascinating about this application and protocol is that information can be exchanged and updated without the Internet over USB[0] and the protocol is designed where it could be implemented to pass information over devices like goTenna.[1] [0] https://boingboing.net/2017/04/07/bug-in-tech-for-antipreppers.html https://boingboing.net/2017/04/07/bug-in-tech-for-antipreppe... [1] https://community.gotennamesh.com/t/using-gotenna-for-scuttlebutt-data-exchange/1592/7 https://community.gotennamesh.com/t/using-gotenna-for-scuttl...

arkanciscan 6y ago

I understand what scuttlebutt does. What I don't understand is why. What kind of information benefits from decentralization? The only answer I can think of is child porn.

lowdose 6y ago
You never benefited from a torrent? Never used popcorn time?
- arkanciscan 6y ago
  So, it's just for illegal stuff?
  - black_puppydog 6y ago
    my gosh... yes, just like torrents are only good for illegal stuff... my goodness...
  - ChristianBundy 6y ago
    Of course not. The point (for me) is that it's truly owned by it's users and it never goes down.
detaro 6y ago
Anything you don't want to be at the whims of a central service shutting down/changing their policies/...? Using a system centered around identity and immutable records for illegal things would be quite stupid.
- arkanciscan 6y ago
  I can already host my own blog and have it safe from the whims of a central service. I'd like to hear more about how this is tied to identify, but the immutability is my main concern with regard to illegal activity. Once your daughters nudes are leaked on scuttlebutt how do you get them taken down?

olah_1 6y ago

Wow, lots of scuttlebutt shilling going on lately. What's the status of "sameas" (multi-device identities) and off-chain feeds that allow for deletes/edits? The former is a massive usability concern and the latter is (ironically) a privacy concern. Also, why not use a ratchet system so a single leak doesn't make your whole archive of private messages go public?

sylvain_kerkour 6y ago
I would also really love to learn what SSBers have to say about this, these were my primary concerns after reading the spec.
- ChristianBundy 6y ago
  I'm personally working on both of these problems. Multiple feeds are implementated in an Oasis PR, and multiple feed types are implemented in the protocol and Go implementation, but the JS implementation is still being worked on. Once we fix that we should be able to hold any append-only feed as a Scuttlebutt feed (e.g. a Git branch).
  - olah_1 6y ago
    To clarify, "multiple feed types" means immutable feeds and mutable feeds? As a user, how can I know which type of feed I'm posting to? Will clients just adopt the mutable feeds by default? Or will they allow you choose the type of feed you want?
    - ChristianBundy 6y ago
      Yep, sorry for the brevity -- I was on mobile. Right now the only valid message type is a JSON payload with both the content of the message and the signature embedded in the object. This has two problems: - The embedded signature is annoying because you have to surgically remove it before validating. - The embedded content is annoying because you can't delete a message without deleting the link from your signature chain. If we build validators that accept different message encodings, then we can end up with different types of feeds. Fixing the above is pretty simple: make both the signature and the content of the message appear adjacent to the the on-chain message. The signature authenticates the message, and the message references the content of the message. If you want to delete the content of the message, you can, and it doesn't require deleting the on-chain reference to its hash. Using different validators would also allow us to validate, say, Git commits, where any commit is valid as long as it contains a valid signature by the key we expect. Or maybe we validate Dat (hypercore) messages so that they're first-class citizens -- making SSB more of a meta-network for content signed with a trusted signature. My hunch is that interface developers will probably converge on a single Good Enough feed type for the application. My guess is that social network interfaces like Patchwork/Oasis will use something like GabbyGrove (CBOR + adjacent signatures and content), but that applications like Git-SSB will probably just use signed Git commits. Hard to say!

merricksb 6y ago

Related discussion earlier today: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22909984 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22909984 Previous related HN discussions: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16877603 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16877603 (2 years ago) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16273096 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16273096 (2 years ago) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20828356 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20828356 (8 months ago) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15890911 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15890911 (2 years ago)

sylvain_kerkour 6y ago

What happen if I receive message N+1 but not message N (due to gossiping)? Can I still read message N+1?

black_puppydog 6y ago
usually the gossip works in a way that you should receive each feed's messages in order. Essentially, your client will talk to a peer and say "I have everything up to message M from feed F, got news?" and then the peer will go "Oh, I'm caught up to message M!" and then your client will realize that N > M, and ask for the messages [M+1...N] in order. Of course, there are ways to mess this up if you try really hard. :P But to answer your question: Yes, you can read it. You won't be able to verify that it is part of an unbroken signature chain, but you will be able to verify that it was signed with the feed's private key.
ChristianBundy 6y ago
Yep, and your database will record that it's missing message N.

mint2 6y ago

The link is down I’m guessing it’s not the scuttle butt of the outdoor world. A Scuttle butt is the protective fabric put around a climbing harness when one is canyoneering and will be sliding down and scraping against abrasive material like sandstone.

TimJRobinson 6y ago

OP of the article here. Sorry the server got hugged to death, I launched the site a few weeks ago and wasn't expecting it to end up on the HN front page. It's back up on a better server now (and will be seeded to Scuttlebutt soon). Happy to answer any questions.

eschaton 6y ago

Other than the cryptography, how does Scuttlebutt really differ from UUCP?