3 ms·

Those are unfortunately baked into our accounting, much like “killed by bandits” was accounted for in medieval trade until states started being able and willing

Those are unfortunately baked into our accounting, much like “killed by bandits” was accounted for in medieval trade until states started being able and willing to provide meaningful security.

jfoster 7y ago
But the assumptions in many of them were made a long time ago and don't necessarily apply anymore. In the case of air pollution for example, there probably exists a price that could be paid to significantly reduce it and improve the overall health of everyone.
- afthonos 7y ago
  I don’t disagree. But we seem to be bad at re-evaluating old decisions (definitely in my case), and it doesn’t help when politics is basically a team sport in the US.
- thawaway1837 7y ago
  The issue is that the price is paid by a set of people who are different from the people who benefit from this. And the people who benefit are the ones in power, whereas the ones who suffer are the ones without power. So the trade offs are largely not accepted because they are acceptable to society at large, but because the people who have the power to make the decisions are insulated from it. In the US wealth is a decent proxy for power, so this claim can actually easily be quantified. Simply draw maps correlating the wealth of a neighborhood with the adverse effect being discussed. Whether it’s air pollution levels, or it’s deaths due to car accidents, or mercury in water, or lead in walls, it will invariably be the case the problem correlated strongly with the wealth of the area.
  - jekoeoe9njdjr 7y ago
    Saying the masses don’t have power is nonsense The right organizes groups to show displays of power The general public can too. Lookit teacher strikes and SOPA Especially right now with bungling dumbass, people already stuck home, with supplies... WFH workers should absolutely be striking SOPA style web blackout, except for supplies services Or be a fatalist and let old people’s demands to keep their figurative life afloat drive the species off the cliff Congress would absolutely have to step in as Trump would finally just crumple into his chair and drool Which is how it was supposed to be in the US. Public pressures Congress into compliance, not each other through government rules about HR and accounting Humans are biologically programmed to avoid things that make them fearful Sitting on your butt riding along isn’t stoking much fear in privileged turds That we have no power at scale is a lack of imagination and to be completely frank, rather pathetic Web chuds used SOPA to stop their pet issue but can’t be bothered to shut the screen off for the species itself? Off the cliff we go, I guess “It’s all the elites fault!”
dmarchand90 7y ago
I didn't know that "killed by bandits" was a standard in medieval trade logs! Is there a book or article you could happen to recommend to learn more about that?
- afthonos 7y ago
  I was not being literal, though I’m fairly sure I’m right for some not-too-loose definition of the term. Inspiration did come from The Narrow Corridor[1], which has a good history of the building of state capacity in Europe, and how it affected trade. In particular, cost falls, which is one way “attacked and/or killed by bandits” could be proxied. Another thing that drives down cost is reducing the number of tolls along the road, as discussed in this paper: https://mason.gmu.edu/~mkoyama2/About_files/StateCapacitySurvey.pdf https://mason.gmu.edu/~mkoyama2/About_files/StateCapacitySur... So again, while I don’t think that it’s a stretch to assume traders who had to cross dangerous territories accounted for the dangers, I don’t have a direct source. :-) [1] https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/555400/the-narrow-corridor-by-daron-acemoglu-and-james-a-robinson/ https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/555400/the-narrow-c...
  - dmarchand90 7y ago
    Great thanks for the references!

Those are unfortunately baked into our accounting, much like “killed by bandits” was accounted for in medieval trade until states started being able and willing to provide meaningful security.

jfoster 7y ago

But the assumptions in many of them were made a long time ago and don't necessarily apply anymore. In the case of air pollution for example, there probably exists a price that could be paid to significantly reduce it and improve the overall health of everyone.

afthonos 7y ago
I don’t disagree. But we seem to be bad at re-evaluating old decisions (definitely in my case), and it doesn’t help when politics is basically a team sport in the US.
thawaway1837 7y ago
The issue is that the price is paid by a set of people who are different from the people who benefit from this. And the people who benefit are the ones in power, whereas the ones who suffer are the ones without power. So the trade offs are largely not accepted because they are acceptable to society at large, but because the people who have the power to make the decisions are insulated from it. In the US wealth is a decent proxy for power, so this claim can actually easily be quantified. Simply draw maps correlating the wealth of a neighborhood with the adverse effect being discussed. Whether it’s air pollution levels, or it’s deaths due to car accidents, or mercury in water, or lead in walls, it will invariably be the case the problem correlated strongly with the wealth of the area.
- jekoeoe9njdjr 7y ago
  Saying the masses don’t have power is nonsense The right organizes groups to show displays of power The general public can too. Lookit teacher strikes and SOPA Especially right now with bungling dumbass, people already stuck home, with supplies... WFH workers should absolutely be striking SOPA style web blackout, except for supplies services Or be a fatalist and let old people’s demands to keep their figurative life afloat drive the species off the cliff Congress would absolutely have to step in as Trump would finally just crumple into his chair and drool Which is how it was supposed to be in the US. Public pressures Congress into compliance, not each other through government rules about HR and accounting Humans are biologically programmed to avoid things that make them fearful Sitting on your butt riding along isn’t stoking much fear in privileged turds That we have no power at scale is a lack of imagination and to be completely frank, rather pathetic Web chuds used SOPA to stop their pet issue but can’t be bothered to shut the screen off for the species itself? Off the cliff we go, I guess “It’s all the elites fault!”

dmarchand90 7y ago

I didn't know that "killed by bandits" was a standard in medieval trade logs! Is there a book or article you could happen to recommend to learn more about that?

afthonos 7y ago
I was not being literal, though I’m fairly sure I’m right for some not-too-loose definition of the term. Inspiration did come from The Narrow Corridor[1], which has a good history of the building of state capacity in Europe, and how it affected trade. In particular, cost falls, which is one way “attacked and/or killed by bandits” could be proxied. Another thing that drives down cost is reducing the number of tolls along the road, as discussed in this paper: https://mason.gmu.edu/~mkoyama2/About_files/StateCapacitySurvey.pdf https://mason.gmu.edu/~mkoyama2/About_files/StateCapacitySur... So again, while I don’t think that it’s a stretch to assume traders who had to cross dangerous territories accounted for the dangers, I don’t have a direct source. :-) [1] https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/555400/the-narrow-corridor-by-daron-acemoglu-and-james-a-robinson/ https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/555400/the-narrow-c...
- dmarchand90 7y ago
  Great thanks for the references!