4 ms·

will US learn to be less car-centric after this?

mattigames 6y ago
no, it will not even learn to pick leaders that react quickly to pandemics.
asveikau 6y ago
As an American, I hope so, but it is also pretty deeply ingrained. Cities and towns have also already been built spread out and many homes are completely dependent on getting in a car as a necessary first action. Around cities, many are also priced out of where they work with transit not up to the task. But perhaps those who are able to WFH are getting a glimpse of what it can be like.
- briandear 6y ago
  Spread out homes sound like a feature not a bug. Population density increases infectious disease R0.
  - asveikau 6y ago
    If we consider the pandemic an exceptional event... Why should we optimize for exceptional events and ignore the cost on a normal day? We should destroy our own health and the health of our planet so that you can feel good about not catching once-in-a-century infectious disease? Density has many upsides. Economists have shown that denser cities are correlated with productivity gains at a rate surpassing the density increases. The lack of it has many costs, and not just the economic ones or less efficient use of resources. Increased motor vehicles on a personal scale leads to obesity, stress. On a global scale, it is harmful to the planet. Note the news reports of clearer skies from a very cease in this activity.
  - xienze 6y ago
    Trying to undo your downvote brigade. People don’t want to hear it, but it’s the truth. Density without serious mitigation efforts results in massive spread, see New York.
freeone3000 6y ago
No amount of pandemics can smoosh buildings closer.
- zachkatz 6y ago
  Many European cities actually have very wide streets—they just choose to cede space for bikes, trams, buses, and wider sidewalks, instead of dedicating 100% of the streets to single-occupancy cars and car storage like we do. An example—Overtoom in Amsterdam: https://www.google.com/maps/@52.3620058,4.8722503,3a,75y,96.61h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s6FSONQ6aUEfB_wECUMyREg!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3D6FSONQ6aUEfB_wECUMyREg%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D259.46942%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en https://www.google.com/maps/@52.3620058,4.8722503,3a,75y,96....
  - cjbprime 6y ago
    The difference in density and sprawl between pre-car and post-car cities is staggering, and is not about the width of streets. You can't get around Los Angeles without driving on freeways.
    - zachkatz 6y ago
      Except Los Angeles is actually a pre-car city, and at one point had the biggest streetcar network in the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_Railway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_Railway With investment in public transit (i.e. approximately rebuilding the original streetcar network and building out the existing Metro system) and a high-quality protected bike lane network, LA could be truly amazing.
      - cjbprime 6y ago
        It had the highest per-capita car registration in the world at the same time, though.
        6y ago
chapium 6y ago
Are the houses going to get closer to work and stores?
dehrmann 6y ago
No. For one, this situation has nothing to do with cars, so there's no obvious lesson about cars to be drawn from it. Accidents are relatively rare, and when you frame the headline, as another commenter did, as $1 per person-day, it's a lot less impressive. It's also not viable in a lot of places. Mass transit and living close to work, shopping, and services, is only viable in certain urban centers. NYC, DC, Boston, maybe Chicago are good. LA, not so much (but improving), Dallas, hah! And if you live in a suburb our outside the city? Car. What will change is habits around traveling. Maybe there will be more working from home (or maybe not). Maybe cities aren't as desirable (or they still are). Maybe there's a broader economic reshuffle. Oil is incredibly cheap right now. Those are the factors that will drive car use over the next few years, not a dollar figure that is, not surprisingly, on the order of what I pay for car insurance. If a $1000 annual insurance bill doesn't keep people out of their cars, why would this headline?
- WD-42 6y ago
  Funny you say accidents are rare. The death toll from covid in the US has just barely surpassed the amount of car related deaths per year in the US.
  - bdavis__ 6y ago
    in 2 months. 1/6 of a year.
    - antpls 6y ago
      We don't know how many people covid19 would kill if everyone were infected. Given the data we have now about covid19, cars probably killed more people in the last 15 years than covid19 will kill people in the next 15 years.
Exmoor 6y ago
Other than the obvious drop in drivers due to unemployment, I don't see a plausible way that happens. Taking public transit is probably one of the riskiest activities the average person might undertake in their day as far as contracting a virus. Whether or not that will cause people to take their cars instead is unknown, but I can't imagine it will increase ridership in the near term. Additionally we may see a slowing down or even slight reversal in the trends of populations becoming more urban and more dense. Living in a 400sqft apartment is doable for some people when they're spending most of their free time at bars, parks, restaurants, etc., but after enduring months of those places inaccessible the idea of living in a less-dense suburb may be appealing to people.
ars 6y ago
If anything, more car-centric. I can't even imagine handling this lockdown without a car. I try to rarely leave the house, so when I go I buy enough groceries for 2 weeks or more. That would not be possible without a car. With a car I also have a lot less contact with other people. I feel really bad for those people who don't have cars - bus service is severely reduced, and I bet they are having a very hard time.
briandear 6y ago
Cars are the ultimate in social distancing. Who wants to ride a crowded bus or train after this?

no, it will not even learn to pick leaders that react quickly to pandemics.

As an American, I hope so, but it is also pretty deeply ingrained. Cities and towns have also already been built spread out and many homes are completely dependent on getting in a car as a necessary first action. Around cities, many are also priced out of where they work with transit not up to the task. But perhaps those who are able to WFH are getting a glimpse of what it can be like.

briandear 6y ago
Spread out homes sound like a feature not a bug. Population density increases infectious disease R0.
- asveikau 6y ago
  If we consider the pandemic an exceptional event... Why should we optimize for exceptional events and ignore the cost on a normal day? We should destroy our own health and the health of our planet so that you can feel good about not catching once-in-a-century infectious disease? Density has many upsides. Economists have shown that denser cities are correlated with productivity gains at a rate surpassing the density increases. The lack of it has many costs, and not just the economic ones or less efficient use of resources. Increased motor vehicles on a personal scale leads to obesity, stress. On a global scale, it is harmful to the planet. Note the news reports of clearer skies from a very cease in this activity.
- xienze 6y ago
  Trying to undo your downvote brigade. People don’t want to hear it, but it’s the truth. Density without serious mitigation efforts results in massive spread, see New York.

freeone3000 6y ago

No amount of pandemics can smoosh buildings closer.

zachkatz 6y ago
Many European cities actually have very wide streets—they just choose to cede space for bikes, trams, buses, and wider sidewalks, instead of dedicating 100% of the streets to single-occupancy cars and car storage like we do. An example—Overtoom in Amsterdam: https://www.google.com/maps/@52.3620058,4.8722503,3a,75y,96.61h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s6FSONQ6aUEfB_wECUMyREg!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3D6FSONQ6aUEfB_wECUMyREg%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D259.46942%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en https://www.google.com/maps/@52.3620058,4.8722503,3a,75y,96....
- cjbprime 6y ago
  The difference in density and sprawl between pre-car and post-car cities is staggering, and is not about the width of streets. You can't get around Los Angeles without driving on freeways.
  - zachkatz 6y ago
    Except Los Angeles is actually a pre-car city, and at one point had the biggest streetcar network in the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_Railway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_Railway With investment in public transit (i.e. approximately rebuilding the original streetcar network and building out the existing Metro system) and a high-quality protected bike lane network, LA could be truly amazing.
    - cjbprime 6y ago
      It had the highest per-capita car registration in the world at the same time, though.
      - 6y ago

chapium 6y ago

Are the houses going to get closer to work and stores?

dehrmann 6y ago

No. For one, this situation has nothing to do with cars, so there's no obvious lesson about cars to be drawn from it. Accidents are relatively rare, and when you frame the headline, as another commenter did, as $1 per person-day, it's a lot less impressive. It's also not viable in a lot of places. Mass transit and living close to work, shopping, and services, is only viable in certain urban centers. NYC, DC, Boston, maybe Chicago are good. LA, not so much (but improving), Dallas, hah! And if you live in a suburb our outside the city? Car. What will change is habits around traveling. Maybe there will be more working from home (or maybe not). Maybe cities aren't as desirable (or they still are). Maybe there's a broader economic reshuffle. Oil is incredibly cheap right now. Those are the factors that will drive car use over the next few years, not a dollar figure that is, not surprisingly, on the order of what I pay for car insurance. If a $1000 annual insurance bill doesn't keep people out of their cars, why would this headline?

WD-42 6y ago
Funny you say accidents are rare. The death toll from covid in the US has just barely surpassed the amount of car related deaths per year in the US.
- bdavis__ 6y ago
  in 2 months. 1/6 of a year.
  - antpls 6y ago
    We don't know how many people covid19 would kill if everyone were infected. Given the data we have now about covid19, cars probably killed more people in the last 15 years than covid19 will kill people in the next 15 years.

Exmoor 6y ago

Other than the obvious drop in drivers due to unemployment, I don't see a plausible way that happens. Taking public transit is probably one of the riskiest activities the average person might undertake in their day as far as contracting a virus. Whether or not that will cause people to take their cars instead is unknown, but I can't imagine it will increase ridership in the near term. Additionally we may see a slowing down or even slight reversal in the trends of populations becoming more urban and more dense. Living in a 400sqft apartment is doable for some people when they're spending most of their free time at bars, parks, restaurants, etc., but after enduring months of those places inaccessible the idea of living in a less-dense suburb may be appealing to people.

ars 6y ago

If anything, more car-centric. I can't even imagine handling this lockdown without a car. I try to rarely leave the house, so when I go I buy enough groceries for 2 weeks or more. That would not be possible without a car. With a car I also have a lot less contact with other people. I feel really bad for those people who don't have cars - bus service is severely reduced, and I bet they are having a very hard time.

briandear 6y ago

Cars are the ultimate in social distancing. Who wants to ride a crowded bus or train after this?