6 ms·

Bernie Madoff did not earn anything. He stole. You cannot justly equate a destroyer of value (Madoff) with a creator of value (Jobs).

nickbp 16y ago
Those who would be benefited by a charity are unlikely to be impacted by Jobs' computers. What Haitian can afford or would be helped by a MacBook?
- maxharris 16y ago
  The question, rephrased is: does anyone have a right to exist as a free person when there is suffering anywhere in the world? I say yes. Need is not a valid claim on anyone else's life. I didn't make them poor. My moral responsibility lies with making my own life the best. In doing so, I'm not harming anyone, because it's not in my interest to sacrifice others to myself (just as it is not in my interest to sacrifice myself to others.) Instead of begging or stealing, I advocate trading.
  - nickbp 16y ago
    If you witness a car accident, do you ignore it because you didn't cause the crash? Do you walk up to the shattered window to yell "I'm not responsible!"? Or do you help them out of their current situation so that they can better help themselves in the future?
    - maxharris 16y ago
      That depends on the context. (Do you pick up hitchhikers? If so, when?) If I have to choose between something I value more (say my wife is in anaphylactic shock and needs to be driven to the hospital), and someone I see in a car wreck on the way to the hospital, I'm going to choose my wife, because she's a higher value to me than anyone else. However, if I don't have something that pressing to worry about, and I physically come across someone is injured in this way (so this is an emergency context, which is by definition something that doesn't happen frequently), I'll help. The sight of someone suffering from an unforeseeable emergency is an awful thing, and if I happen to come across it, I'd do what I could to help, so long as it wasn't a sacrifice for me (didn't leave me significantly poorer, less able, etc.) None of this means that I should drive around town looking for people that are stranded or injured, or that I need to give my money to people that I'll never meet. I hope this clarifies things.
OpieCunningham 16y ago
Bernie Madoff earned his money by stealing it. The same could be said for many people that aren't sitting in jail and who aren't generally/politically believed to have done anything that should cause them to be sitting in jail. I did not equate Jobs to Madoff (or AIG or arms dealers), I simply stated that being in possession of fifty million dollars does not provide any indication of moral value of the possessor.
- maxharris 16y ago
  Bernie Madoff earned his money by stealing it. This is a contradiction in terms. To earn something means to trade for it honestly, exchanging one value for another. To steal something means something altogether different (taking something by force or fraud). These two words do not mean the same thing; they are, in fact, opposites.
  - OpieCunningham 16y ago
    Nonsense. To earn: obtain in return for labor or services. Honesty has absolutely nothing to do with the definition of the word. And in any case, selling heroin to high schoolers fits your new definition of "earning". I surely see no moral good that comes from that. As such, earning fifty million, or five dollars has zero correlation to morality.
    - maxharris 16y ago
      What labor or service did Madoff perform for his victims in exchange for their money?
      - OpieCunningham 16y ago
        I'm not interested in debating such a thing. Let's just say (agree?) the labor/services Madoff performed were not the labor/services his investors had hoped for. And since his labor/services were in opposition to agreed upon contracts, he is sitting in jail. I have already provided at least 2 other examples of people immorally earning (per your new definition) money, you have ignored both to focus on semantics involving Madoff. My point remains. Your original post and overall point is invalid. In fact, it is 100% backwards. Money is morally neutral. It's how you get money and what you do with it that determines morality.

nickbp 16y ago

Those who would be benefited by a charity are unlikely to be impacted by Jobs' computers. What Haitian can afford or would be helped by a MacBook?

maxharris 16y ago
The question, rephrased is: does anyone have a right to exist as a free person when there is suffering anywhere in the world? I say yes. Need is not a valid claim on anyone else's life. I didn't make them poor. My moral responsibility lies with making my own life the best. In doing so, I'm not harming anyone, because it's not in my interest to sacrifice others to myself (just as it is not in my interest to sacrifice myself to others.) Instead of begging or stealing, I advocate trading.
- nickbp 16y ago
  If you witness a car accident, do you ignore it because you didn't cause the crash? Do you walk up to the shattered window to yell "I'm not responsible!"? Or do you help them out of their current situation so that they can better help themselves in the future?
  - maxharris 16y ago
    That depends on the context. (Do you pick up hitchhikers? If so, when?) If I have to choose between something I value more (say my wife is in anaphylactic shock and needs to be driven to the hospital), and someone I see in a car wreck on the way to the hospital, I'm going to choose my wife, because she's a higher value to me than anyone else. However, if I don't have something that pressing to worry about, and I physically come across someone is injured in this way (so this is an emergency context, which is by definition something that doesn't happen frequently), I'll help. The sight of someone suffering from an unforeseeable emergency is an awful thing, and if I happen to come across it, I'd do what I could to help, so long as it wasn't a sacrifice for me (didn't leave me significantly poorer, less able, etc.) None of this means that I should drive around town looking for people that are stranded or injured, or that I need to give my money to people that I'll never meet. I hope this clarifies things.

OpieCunningham 16y ago

Bernie Madoff earned his money by stealing it. The same could be said for many people that aren't sitting in jail and who aren't generally/politically believed to have done anything that should cause them to be sitting in jail. I did not equate Jobs to Madoff (or AIG or arms dealers), I simply stated that being in possession of fifty million dollars does not provide any indication of moral value of the possessor.

maxharris 16y ago
Bernie Madoff earned his money by stealing it. This is a contradiction in terms. To earn something means to trade for it honestly, exchanging one value for another. To steal something means something altogether different (taking something by force or fraud). These two words do not mean the same thing; they are, in fact, opposites.
- OpieCunningham 16y ago
  Nonsense. To earn: obtain in return for labor or services. Honesty has absolutely nothing to do with the definition of the word. And in any case, selling heroin to high schoolers fits your new definition of "earning". I surely see no moral good that comes from that. As such, earning fifty million, or five dollars has zero correlation to morality.
  - maxharris 16y ago
    What labor or service did Madoff perform for his victims in exchange for their money?
    - OpieCunningham 16y ago
      I'm not interested in debating such a thing. Let's just say (agree?) the labor/services Madoff performed were not the labor/services his investors had hoped for. And since his labor/services were in opposition to agreed upon contracts, he is sitting in jail. I have already provided at least 2 other examples of people immorally earning (per your new definition) money, you have ignored both to focus on semantics involving Madoff. My point remains. Your original post and overall point is invalid. In fact, it is 100% backwards. Money is morally neutral. It's how you get money and what you do with it that determines morality.