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Because "something better than humans can do" is the whole selling point of self-driving cars. And plenty of us humans can and do drive reasonably-safely in sn

Because "something better than humans can do" is the whole selling point of self-driving cars. And plenty of us humans can and do drive reasonably-safely in snowy/icy conditions. It takes practice, like anything else driving-related, but it's something that most drivers north of the Mason-Dixon Line likely have quite a bit of practice with and have to handle a significant fraction of the year. It's not unreasonable to hold self-driving cars to the same standard.

chrisseaton 7y ago
> Because "something better than humans can do" is the whole selling point of self-driving cars. I don't think so. 'As good as humans can do' would be useful.
- gambiting 7y ago
  Nope, "as good as a human" shouldn't be allowed on the road or on the market. Errors that are allowed for humans should never be allowed for a machine.
  - chrisseaton 7y ago
    > Nope, "as good as a human" shouldn't be allowed on the road or on the market. Errors that are allowed for humans should never be allowed for a machine. I don't understand why you'd have that opinion. If it's no riskier and relieves people from having to drive then that seems like a net benefit to me.
    - gambiting 7y ago
      For the same reason why when a human pilot makes a mistake it's a mistake, but when an autopilot malfunctions every single plane of that type is grounded until the issue can be found and fixed. Machines cannot be just as good as humans, they have to close to perfect when human life is involved. As another example, imagine if you had a radiotherapy machine, when operated manually it randomly kills 1/10000 patients, but when operated by AI it randomly kills 1/100000 patients. Yet I'm 100% certain even though it's a 10x improvement over a human operator it still wouldn't be allowed on the market.
      - chrisseaton 7y ago
        > even though it's a 10x improvement over a human operator it still wouldn't be allowed on the market Hmm I don't agree I think people would go for that.
        gambiting 7y ago
        Then look up Therac-25, because that's roughly what happened
        chrisseaton 7y ago
        > Therac-25 That wasn't AI - it was a concurrency error, wasn't it? You shouldn't discard technology because sometimes it's wrong. It can be better overall.
        gambiting 7y ago
        Why would it matter if it was AI or not? 99.9% of the public won't care if an "AI" killed their mum in a car accident or if it was a badly written for loop somewhere. Literally irrelevant. If a computer makes an error people will want blood(as in - they will sue the company to absolute death, just because a human would make the same mistake or worse is irrelevant).
        chrisseaton 7y ago
        > Why would it matter if it was AI or not? I think people's idea of what a computer should be doing has changed a lot since then, due to the common knowledge of AI applications. Perhaps we're close to the situation where when a person makes a mistake they're asked 'why weren't you using the computer?' I've seen this happen myself.
      - wutbrodo 7y ago
        Your original comment asserted that a machine _shouldn't_ be allowed on the market until its performance is significantly superhuman, but your responses in this thread just repeat the assertion. What's the actual rationale for claiming that we should leave a net benefit on the table (eg if human-level driving performance improves transit efficiency)?
candu 7y ago
Exactly. If we're willing to settle for "as good as a human" in autonomous vehicles, then IMHO all this expertise, R&D, time, effort, money, etc. would be better spent on the public transit and/or active mobility solutions of the near-future.
- travisporter 7y ago
  Unfortunately public transit is considered an epithet where I live because it brings crime from the city into my "idyllic crime free" suburb just 10 miles away from city center (no joke). I hate driving and have put my eggs into a self-driving (hopefully super low emissions) taxi service to come online.

chrisseaton 7y ago

> Because "something better than humans can do" is the whole selling point of self-driving cars. I don't think so. 'As good as humans can do' would be useful.

gambiting 7y ago
Nope, "as good as a human" shouldn't be allowed on the road or on the market. Errors that are allowed for humans should never be allowed for a machine.
- chrisseaton 7y ago
  > Nope, "as good as a human" shouldn't be allowed on the road or on the market. Errors that are allowed for humans should never be allowed for a machine. I don't understand why you'd have that opinion. If it's no riskier and relieves people from having to drive then that seems like a net benefit to me.
  - gambiting 7y ago
    For the same reason why when a human pilot makes a mistake it's a mistake, but when an autopilot malfunctions every single plane of that type is grounded until the issue can be found and fixed. Machines cannot be just as good as humans, they have to close to perfect when human life is involved. As another example, imagine if you had a radiotherapy machine, when operated manually it randomly kills 1/10000 patients, but when operated by AI it randomly kills 1/100000 patients. Yet I'm 100% certain even though it's a 10x improvement over a human operator it still wouldn't be allowed on the market.
    - chrisseaton 7y ago
      > even though it's a 10x improvement over a human operator it still wouldn't be allowed on the market Hmm I don't agree I think people would go for that.
      - gambiting 7y ago
        Then look up Therac-25, because that's roughly what happened
        chrisseaton 7y ago
        > Therac-25 That wasn't AI - it was a concurrency error, wasn't it? You shouldn't discard technology because sometimes it's wrong. It can be better overall.
        gambiting 7y ago
        Why would it matter if it was AI or not? 99.9% of the public won't care if an "AI" killed their mum in a car accident or if it was a badly written for loop somewhere. Literally irrelevant. If a computer makes an error people will want blood(as in - they will sue the company to absolute death, just because a human would make the same mistake or worse is irrelevant).
        chrisseaton 7y ago
        > Why would it matter if it was AI or not? I think people's idea of what a computer should be doing has changed a lot since then, due to the common knowledge of AI applications. Perhaps we're close to the situation where when a person makes a mistake they're asked 'why weren't you using the computer?' I've seen this happen myself.
    - wutbrodo 7y ago
      Your original comment asserted that a machine _shouldn't_ be allowed on the market until its performance is significantly superhuman, but your responses in this thread just repeat the assertion. What's the actual rationale for claiming that we should leave a net benefit on the table (eg if human-level driving performance improves transit efficiency)?

candu 7y ago

Exactly. If we're willing to settle for "as good as a human" in autonomous vehicles, then IMHO all this expertise, R&D, time, effort, money, etc. would be better spent on the public transit and/or active mobility solutions of the near-future.

travisporter 7y ago
Unfortunately public transit is considered an epithet where I live because it brings crime from the city into my "idyllic crime free" suburb just 10 miles away from city center (no joke). I hate driving and have put my eggs into a self-driving (hopefully super low emissions) taxi service to come online.