4 ms·

This is based on a certain positivist view of culture, that tries to quantify on certain cultural dimensions. This doesn't look behind coded appearances. As a s

by _glass 6y ago

This is based on a certain positivist view of culture, that tries to quantify on certain cultural dimensions. This doesn't look behind coded appearances. As a specialist for Turkey I would say that it is much more secular-rationalist than Germany. But would never voice it as such, which is a form of respect. For sure in quantitative interviews one would not be able to account for that. On top of that this map's cluster is unscientific because it clusters things that are not comparable (provokes a type error). Confucian: religion, English speaking: language, South Asia: continent. I am a PhD student in intercultural management.

yesenadam 6y ago
> As a specialist for Turkey I would say that it is much more secular-rationalist than Germany. Wow, that's surprising, can you expand on that? I had a Turkish girlfriend for a few years, it felt like I was living in Turkey. (For example, we couldn't hold hands in the street–in Australia!–because Turkish people would see and her family would find out. Being married makes a female suddenly off-limits to male harrassment, but public affection with a boyfriend seems shameful and quite the opposite.) I learnt that e.g. changing your religion in Turkey can get you killed. Then the Islamists took over and it felt like things were getting medieval quickly. But I haven't heard news from there for 5+ years.
- _glass 6y ago
  Sure, first immigrant communities are always different. Depending on their context of emigration (from where, how did they emigrate) and also the surrounding society. It can be a part of their cultural identity to do as one thinks a Turk would do. Nevertheless that is exactly a part where I would think that a simplification to compare with a global rational cultural dimension is impossible. Marriage is in Turkey much more important, but most Turks would not counter you with Islam, but with a rational discourse, e.g. a woman can get pregnant, she has to secure her hypothetical children. If she gets pregnant, the family would look like they couldn't take care, and so on. It is another story if this is really something that the family should decide. On the other hand if you would visit Turkey, which is heavily urbanized, and especially Istanbul, which is like 20% of Turkey, you would see that a lot of things are not allowed, but done. Because, well, it is not that much not allowed. I would not take those numbers for granted, but it is a funny indicator in the Durex report, where Turkey has a mean number of sexual partners of 5.3 and France just 3.8 [1]. I would also be very careful when to blame Islamists. Turkey is not a religious country. There are a lot of countries who want to construct here a clash of cultures. And apostasy is not something that gets you killed. [1] http://www.durexnetwork.org/SiteCollectionDocuments/The%20Face%20of%20Global%20Sex%202010.pdf http://www.durexnetwork.org/SiteCollectionDocuments/The%20Fa...
  - yesenadam 6y ago
    Thanks. But you didn't say anything to persuade me that > As a specialist for Turkey I would say that it is much more secular-rationalist than Germany. And reading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Turkey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Turkey doesn't at all give the impression that > Turkey is not a religious country. Neither does https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#Turkey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#Turkey which says "there are several formal and informal mechanisms in place that make it hard for citizens not to be Muslim. Non-Muslims, especially non-religious people, are discriminated against in a variety of ways. Article 216 of the penal code outlaws insulting religious belief, a de facto blasphemy law obstructing citizens from expressing irreligious views, or views critical of religions."

by _glass 6y ago

yesenadam 6y ago

> As a specialist for Turkey I would say that it is much more secular-rationalist than Germany. Wow, that's surprising, can you expand on that? I had a Turkish girlfriend for a few years, it felt like I was living in Turkey. (For example, we couldn't hold hands in the street–in Australia!–because Turkish people would see and her family would find out. Being married makes a female suddenly off-limits to male harrassment, but public affection with a boyfriend seems shameful and quite the opposite.) I learnt that e.g. changing your religion in Turkey can get you killed. Then the Islamists took over and it felt like things were getting medieval quickly. But I haven't heard news from there for 5+ years.

_glass 6y ago
Sure, first immigrant communities are always different. Depending on their context of emigration (from where, how did they emigrate) and also the surrounding society. It can be a part of their cultural identity to do as one thinks a Turk would do. Nevertheless that is exactly a part where I would think that a simplification to compare with a global rational cultural dimension is impossible. Marriage is in Turkey much more important, but most Turks would not counter you with Islam, but with a rational discourse, e.g. a woman can get pregnant, she has to secure her hypothetical children. If she gets pregnant, the family would look like they couldn't take care, and so on. It is another story if this is really something that the family should decide. On the other hand if you would visit Turkey, which is heavily urbanized, and especially Istanbul, which is like 20% of Turkey, you would see that a lot of things are not allowed, but done. Because, well, it is not that much not allowed. I would not take those numbers for granted, but it is a funny indicator in the Durex report, where Turkey has a mean number of sexual partners of 5.3 and France just 3.8 [1]. I would also be very careful when to blame Islamists. Turkey is not a religious country. There are a lot of countries who want to construct here a clash of cultures. And apostasy is not something that gets you killed. [1] http://www.durexnetwork.org/SiteCollectionDocuments/The%20Face%20of%20Global%20Sex%202010.pdf http://www.durexnetwork.org/SiteCollectionDocuments/The%20Fa...
- yesenadam 6y ago
  Thanks. But you didn't say anything to persuade me that > As a specialist for Turkey I would say that it is much more secular-rationalist than Germany. And reading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Turkey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Turkey doesn't at all give the impression that > Turkey is not a religious country. Neither does https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#Turkey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#Turkey which says "there are several formal and informal mechanisms in place that make it hard for citizens not to be Muslim. Non-Muslims, especially non-religious people, are discriminated against in a variety of ways. Article 216 of the penal code outlaws insulting religious belief, a de facto blasphemy law obstructing citizens from expressing irreligious views, or views critical of religions."