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>The worst part is the wealthy in developing nations also gravitate towards US style urban plans, because that is what is sold as 'high class' I think it's a b

>The worst part is the wealthy in developing nations also gravitate towards US style urban plans, because that is what is sold as 'high class' I think it's a bit more complicated than that. The urban cores of developing countries are really, really unsafe places (like, homicide rates of 5-50x of the worst US ghettos). Anyone who gets a bit of money & financial security wants to establish physical distance between themselves, their families and a Mad Max-type situation. I can't speak for every developing country, but having a bit of familiarity with Brazil- they have exclusive suburban neighborhoods physically separate from the favelas for a reason. And then they tend to have a private security force for the neighborhood, etc. I don't mean to stereotype people in the favelas as all bad (every one the 50+ Brazilians I've met through BJJ grew up on one!), but I can be sympathetic to families who just want basic security along with a middle class life. I basically agree with the Strong Towns thesis that Suburbia Is Bad, but what I think most people here are missing is that when suburbs were planned in the US, inner cities were much less safe and people wanted to put physical space between them. Was there a massive element of racism in that? Yes, but.... it's also true that inner cities used to be way, way more dangerous than they are now. Ask any boomer what chic, expensive parts of New York were like in the 60s, 70s, 80s, etc.

joefourier 7y ago
Nothing about that requires an American-style sprawling suburb. You could copy the Eastern European model of 10+ story apartment buildings surrounded by large amounts of green space, with businesses in the first floor, and perhaps glass skyscrapers instead of ugly brutalist concrete buildings. Those estates could be just as easily protected by a private security force as an American-style community.
- hash872 7y ago
  But if you ever venture outside of the 10+ story apartment building.... Especially if the favela is, like, two doors down. People want to live in a neighborhood that's safe, not just a home enclosure- you're missing the 'neighborhood' concept. A safe neighborhood requires x amount of physical distance from the ghetto that muggers, kidnappers etc. cannot easily surmount. The whole concept of safety means that you can walk outside your front door and not be attacked. A building that's the functional equivalent of a panic room, in the middle of bedlam- people don't want that, you still have to travel to the grocery store, take your kids to school, etc.
  - joefourier 7y ago
    I'm not talking about a 10+ story apartment building in the middle of the city, I'm talking about replacing the low-density 4 bedroom houses in your safe suburban neighbourhood with high-rises, allowing for a much denser community which would enable you to walk to your grocery store, school, etc. instead of having to drive everywhere. You could just as well surround the high-rise neighbourhood with a 5-metre high gate and have armed security guards patrolling everywhere if you'd like. I've lived in both an American-style suburb and a development described above (minus the gates and security guard, Eastern Europe being exceptionally safe) and I much preferred the latter.
kyuudou 7y ago
Bit of a sidetrack but you did say BJJ so I had to say something. Also, did you see "Cidade De Deus"[1]? The planned suburbs in that film were... what you described, I think. Also, I watched that goofy movie "Suburbia"[2] back in the day as well. There's a sort of similar gestalt the both share that I can't quite quantify in words or graphs but it's there. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_God_(2002_film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_God_(2002_film) [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suburbia_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suburbia_(film)
- hash872 7y ago
  I have seen City of God, but it was a long time ago and before I was seriously into BJJ. Have not seen Suburbia. The 'safety in planned suburbs' concept is utilized in so many countries though, literally all of South & Central America, Africa, the US in the past.... I just couldn't believe this whole discussion thread was going to pass by without someone talking about safety

joefourier 7y ago

Nothing about that requires an American-style sprawling suburb. You could copy the Eastern European model of 10+ story apartment buildings surrounded by large amounts of green space, with businesses in the first floor, and perhaps glass skyscrapers instead of ugly brutalist concrete buildings. Those estates could be just as easily protected by a private security force as an American-style community.

hash872 7y ago
But if you ever venture outside of the 10+ story apartment building.... Especially if the favela is, like, two doors down. People want to live in a neighborhood that's safe, not just a home enclosure- you're missing the 'neighborhood' concept. A safe neighborhood requires x amount of physical distance from the ghetto that muggers, kidnappers etc. cannot easily surmount. The whole concept of safety means that you can walk outside your front door and not be attacked. A building that's the functional equivalent of a panic room, in the middle of bedlam- people don't want that, you still have to travel to the grocery store, take your kids to school, etc.
- joefourier 7y ago
  I'm not talking about a 10+ story apartment building in the middle of the city, I'm talking about replacing the low-density 4 bedroom houses in your safe suburban neighbourhood with high-rises, allowing for a much denser community which would enable you to walk to your grocery store, school, etc. instead of having to drive everywhere. You could just as well surround the high-rise neighbourhood with a 5-metre high gate and have armed security guards patrolling everywhere if you'd like. I've lived in both an American-style suburb and a development described above (minus the gates and security guard, Eastern Europe being exceptionally safe) and I much preferred the latter.

kyuudou 7y ago

Bit of a sidetrack but you did say BJJ so I had to say something. Also, did you see "Cidade De Deus"[1]? The planned suburbs in that film were... what you described, I think. Also, I watched that goofy movie "Suburbia"[2] back in the day as well. There's a sort of similar gestalt the both share that I can't quite quantify in words or graphs but it's there. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_God_(2002_film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_God_(2002_film) [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suburbia_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suburbia_(film)

hash872 7y ago
I have seen City of God, but it was a long time ago and before I was seriously into BJJ. Have not seen Suburbia. The 'safety in planned suburbs' concept is utilized in so many countries though, literally all of South & Central America, Africa, the US in the past.... I just couldn't believe this whole discussion thread was going to pass by without someone talking about safety