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Social shaming 'anti-social' behaviors from an early age such as not cleaning up after yourself or taking care of yourself combined with incredible emphasis pla

Social shaming 'anti-social' behaviors from an early age such as not cleaning up after yourself or taking care of yourself combined with incredible emphasis placed on the importance of maintaining good standing in your social group and less emphasis placed on individualism? Confucianism? Look at how Japan or Korea deal with fat-shaming (or in a non-western culture - you'd probably just call it motivating people you care about to take care of themselves). Watch Terrace House to see a snapshot / slice of regular Japanese life and you'll see how often people who have only known each other for a couple of months will stage group interventions to tell someone the way they are living in unacceptable, that they need to work harder or find a dream to chase or clean up after themselves better. It's part of the culture to feel shame for letting the group down and to shame others for letting the group down and all of that is taught culturally from the day you're born. Western individualism has its benefits but also motivates people to feel the freedom to act out negatively as well and to feel fine being ostracized.

andrepd 7y ago
>fat-shaming (or in a non-western culture - you'd probably just call it motivating people you care about to take care of themselves) "Fat-shaming", as it is normally understood, means telling someone they are a pile of lard / look disgusting / etc, which is hardly "motivating people you care to care about themselves. >It's part of the culture to feel shame for letting the group down and to shame others for letting the group down and all of that is taught culturally from the day you're born. This has its downsides. I'm all for a healthy balance between the conflicting sides of individualism/communality. This seems a tad unbalanced to the latter (just as American culture is far too unbalanced to the former). >Western individualism motivates people to feel fine being ostracized. Since Western culture has ostracised (or tortured, imprisoned, killed) people for the silliest reasons, that may not be such a bad thing.
- rconti 7y ago
  I'm not sure you can just say what's "normally understood" that easily. I recently saw a friend -- eg, not a Random Internet Troll -- post something that basically said, people joking about gaining weight during the pandemic are fat-shaming.
dan-robertson 7y ago
I don’t buy a lot of arguments about a culture that’s somehow magically much more orderly. Obviously there are cultural differences but I’m not sure they’re the main reason for the differences between places one sees. I think bigger reasons tend to be structural (and those structural differences often seem to come from essentially random differences in history) The reason the streets are clean is that there is an army of street cleaners picking up litter. If one ventures away from regularly cleaned areas, one will see litter along the sides of main roads, much like America. I don’t know about the homeless situation. Perhaps there are fewer homeless people. Perhaps they are forced out of public spaces by the police. Perhaps they sleep in 24h McDonald’s instead of outside (perhaps it is much too cold in winter). Similarly I hope people don’t look at the difference in healthcare between the uS and Canada and say that it’s because Canadians somehow have some magically nicer culture. I feel that there tend to be larger structural issues between countries that are more significant than a vague argument about “eastern collectivism and western individualism.” For one thing, such an argument lumps china, North Korea, South Korea, and japan into the same bucket when the countries are clearly quite different. It also lumps together the USA, Canada and European countries together when they are also quite different between themselves. One big difference one sees between the US and Japan is the apparent prevalence of petty crime. Statistics may be different because the likelihood of crimes being reported are quite different but it is common in Japan to leave a phone/handbag unattended at a cafe table whereas this would be very unlikely to happen in America. On the other hand it is socially accepted in Sweden to leave babies unattended in proms outside shops whereas this would be unthinkable and likely classed as negligence in America
- mrexroad 7y ago
  > The reason the streets are clean is that there is an army of street cleaners picking up litter. If one ventures away from regularly cleaned areas, one will see litter along the sides of main roads, much like America. Curious if you have you been to Japan and spent time in residential areas. My experience differs significantly—specifically this not simply being due to “an army of street cleaners.” Even in America, when hanging out with Japanese ex-pats—whether grilling at parks, going camping, or simply hosting a kids for a play-date at home—there’s a focus on “cleaning” that goes beyond whatever I was taught as a kid to pick up after myself, or even the Boy Scout “leave no trace”—its something deeper. Also worth noting is how difficult it is to find a trash can in Tokyo.
LargoLasskhyfv 6y ago
Have a cognitve dissonance about fat-shaming in Japan when i think about Sumo wrestling. Seems more like glorifying it.

andrepd 7y ago

>fat-shaming (or in a non-western culture - you'd probably just call it motivating people you care about to take care of themselves) "Fat-shaming", as it is normally understood, means telling someone they are a pile of lard / look disgusting / etc, which is hardly "motivating people you care to care about themselves. >It's part of the culture to feel shame for letting the group down and to shame others for letting the group down and all of that is taught culturally from the day you're born. This has its downsides. I'm all for a healthy balance between the conflicting sides of individualism/communality. This seems a tad unbalanced to the latter (just as American culture is far too unbalanced to the former). >Western individualism motivates people to feel fine being ostracized. Since Western culture has ostracised (or tortured, imprisoned, killed) people for the silliest reasons, that may not be such a bad thing.

rconti 7y ago
I'm not sure you can just say what's "normally understood" that easily. I recently saw a friend -- eg, not a Random Internet Troll -- post something that basically said, people joking about gaining weight during the pandemic are fat-shaming.

dan-robertson 7y ago

I don’t buy a lot of arguments about a culture that’s somehow magically much more orderly. Obviously there are cultural differences but I’m not sure they’re the main reason for the differences between places one sees. I think bigger reasons tend to be structural (and those structural differences often seem to come from essentially random differences in history) The reason the streets are clean is that there is an army of street cleaners picking up litter. If one ventures away from regularly cleaned areas, one will see litter along the sides of main roads, much like America. I don’t know about the homeless situation. Perhaps there are fewer homeless people. Perhaps they are forced out of public spaces by the police. Perhaps they sleep in 24h McDonald’s instead of outside (perhaps it is much too cold in winter). Similarly I hope people don’t look at the difference in healthcare between the uS and Canada and say that it’s because Canadians somehow have some magically nicer culture. I feel that there tend to be larger structural issues between countries that are more significant than a vague argument about “eastern collectivism and western individualism.” For one thing, such an argument lumps china, North Korea, South Korea, and japan into the same bucket when the countries are clearly quite different. It also lumps together the USA, Canada and European countries together when they are also quite different between themselves. One big difference one sees between the US and Japan is the apparent prevalence of petty crime. Statistics may be different because the likelihood of crimes being reported are quite different but it is common in Japan to leave a phone/handbag unattended at a cafe table whereas this would be very unlikely to happen in America. On the other hand it is socially accepted in Sweden to leave babies unattended in proms outside shops whereas this would be unthinkable and likely classed as negligence in America

mrexroad 7y ago
> The reason the streets are clean is that there is an army of street cleaners picking up litter. If one ventures away from regularly cleaned areas, one will see litter along the sides of main roads, much like America. Curious if you have you been to Japan and spent time in residential areas. My experience differs significantly—specifically this not simply being due to “an army of street cleaners.” Even in America, when hanging out with Japanese ex-pats—whether grilling at parks, going camping, or simply hosting a kids for a play-date at home—there’s a focus on “cleaning” that goes beyond whatever I was taught as a kid to pick up after myself, or even the Boy Scout “leave no trace”—its something deeper. Also worth noting is how difficult it is to find a trash can in Tokyo.

LargoLasskhyfv 6y ago

Have a cognitve dissonance about fat-shaming in Japan when i think about Sumo wrestling. Seems more like glorifying it.