7 ms·

Counting spain, UK, italy, france as sweden's neighbor is a bit odd. why not compare it to their actual neighbors, rather than tourism hotspots with lots of tra

by bosie 7y ago

Counting spain, UK, italy, france as sweden's neighbor is a bit odd. why not compare it to their actual neighbors, rather than tourism hotspots with lots of transit?

fullshark 7y ago
Yeah Denmark is the closest to a baseline for comparison imo, Sweden has about 2-3x more deaths per capita at this point and new deaths every week is still growing.
thu2111 7y ago
Because it doesn't matter. Sweden is middle of the pack and not experiencing the massive hospital overloads that they 'should' be according to the projections that drove the lockdowns. Not even close. It appears people are forgetting or retroactively changing the justifications already. The lockdowns were meant to reduce deaths by ensuring everyone who got infected could get healthcare. In Sweden that is the case despite having been much less severe than other countries. Thus, their approach is de facto more successful than elsewhere. Comparing to their direct neighbours is thus irrelevant, because a total reduction in deaths was never the goal (it cannot be, because there's no vaccine). But if you want an explanation for why Sweden may differ, for whatever reason it appears the virus hits non-whites much harder. This is being observed in the USA and Sweden reports that non-whites from e.g. Iraq, Somalia etc are disproportionately affected. Why that would be so is unclear, but a higher death rate than Norway is likely to be at least partly due to the much higher rate of immigration Sweden has allowed than its neighbours.
- simonsaidit 7y ago
  “not experiencing the massive hospital overloads that they 'should' be according to the projections that drove the lockdowns.” And yet very sick patients are already being placed in field hospitals with no running water, laying too close, poor air circulation and on old ventilators which have received criticism from the doctors there.
  - thu2111 7y ago
    And yet that's not - even remotely - the kind of problem that was being projected and which justifies pushing the world towards a global depression of the sort that is known to kill lots of the poorest and most vulnerable. You can find isolated reports of sub-optimal care in any hospital system in the world, at any time. Especially now when so many people are incentivised to paint Sweden in the most negative light possible. Just a couple of weeks ago world leaders were fighting over every ventilator that existed. Now the biggest problem is that someone, somewhere was given an old one? When many doctors are already starting to argue that forced ventilation is the wrong therapy and switching to simple CPAP anyway? That is not a sign of a system in crisis.
    - simonsaidit 7y ago
      You think it pushes the world towards a global recession. I think a hard lockdown and a co trolled opening is what gets it out of one faster. At least that is what we can see studying history in 1918. Eg Denver vs Philadelphia. Scared people are bad consumers. In reality we don’t really know which strategy is the best.
      - polack 7y ago
        "Scared people are bad consumers" People in Sweden are not scared compared to what they are in the UK for example. It's the rest of the world that is scared for the Swedes.
        simonsaidit 7y ago
        Depends on who you ask. I’ve yet to see a study on this. I work as a consultant in a Swedish company and several of my colleagues stopped traveling to clients and insisted on working from home even before most countries shut down. This is now the policy for the entire company. Even if you don’t have an official lockdown many take their own precautions. Personally I’m not worried myself right now because of the precautions people take, but with more people relaxing and risk of more spread i do worry about the future and will probably have to do less of what I do now to reduce risk to people around me.
riffraff 7y ago
worth remembering, Lombardy alone has about the same population as Sweden (10M) and density 20 times higher (420/km2 vs 23/km2). A no-lockdown policy may be reasonable for Sweden, Norway or Finland, while being completely unfeasible elsewhere.

by bosie 7y ago

Counting spain, UK, italy, france as sweden's neighbor is a bit odd. why not compare it to their actual neighbors, rather than tourism hotspots with lots of transit?

fullshark 7y ago

Yeah Denmark is the closest to a baseline for comparison imo, Sweden has about 2-3x more deaths per capita at this point and new deaths every week is still growing.

thu2111 7y ago

Because it doesn't matter. Sweden is middle of the pack and not experiencing the massive hospital overloads that they 'should' be according to the projections that drove the lockdowns. Not even close. It appears people are forgetting or retroactively changing the justifications already. The lockdowns were meant to reduce deaths by ensuring everyone who got infected could get healthcare. In Sweden that is the case despite having been much less severe than other countries. Thus, their approach is de facto more successful than elsewhere. Comparing to their direct neighbours is thus irrelevant, because a total reduction in deaths was never the goal (it cannot be, because there's no vaccine). But if you want an explanation for why Sweden may differ, for whatever reason it appears the virus hits non-whites much harder. This is being observed in the USA and Sweden reports that non-whites from e.g. Iraq, Somalia etc are disproportionately affected. Why that would be so is unclear, but a higher death rate than Norway is likely to be at least partly due to the much higher rate of immigration Sweden has allowed than its neighbours.

simonsaidit 7y ago
“not experiencing the massive hospital overloads that they 'should' be according to the projections that drove the lockdowns.” And yet very sick patients are already being placed in field hospitals with no running water, laying too close, poor air circulation and on old ventilators which have received criticism from the doctors there.
- thu2111 7y ago
  And yet that's not - even remotely - the kind of problem that was being projected and which justifies pushing the world towards a global depression of the sort that is known to kill lots of the poorest and most vulnerable. You can find isolated reports of sub-optimal care in any hospital system in the world, at any time. Especially now when so many people are incentivised to paint Sweden in the most negative light possible. Just a couple of weeks ago world leaders were fighting over every ventilator that existed. Now the biggest problem is that someone, somewhere was given an old one? When many doctors are already starting to argue that forced ventilation is the wrong therapy and switching to simple CPAP anyway? That is not a sign of a system in crisis.
  - simonsaidit 7y ago
    You think it pushes the world towards a global recession. I think a hard lockdown and a co trolled opening is what gets it out of one faster. At least that is what we can see studying history in 1918. Eg Denver vs Philadelphia. Scared people are bad consumers. In reality we don’t really know which strategy is the best.
    - polack 7y ago
      "Scared people are bad consumers" People in Sweden are not scared compared to what they are in the UK for example. It's the rest of the world that is scared for the Swedes.
      - simonsaidit 7y ago
        Depends on who you ask. I’ve yet to see a study on this. I work as a consultant in a Swedish company and several of my colleagues stopped traveling to clients and insisted on working from home even before most countries shut down. This is now the policy for the entire company. Even if you don’t have an official lockdown many take their own precautions. Personally I’m not worried myself right now because of the precautions people take, but with more people relaxing and risk of more spread i do worry about the future and will probably have to do less of what I do now to reduce risk to people around me.

riffraff 7y ago

worth remembering, Lombardy alone has about the same population as Sweden (10M) and density 20 times higher (420/km2 vs 23/km2). A no-lockdown policy may be reasonable for Sweden, Norway or Finland, while being completely unfeasible elsewhere.