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According to Wikipedia, German speaking fraternities have 190.000 members [0], which is around 0.19% of the population of Germany, Switzerland and Austria (EDIT

by lqet 7y ago

According to Wikipedia, German speaking fraternities have 190.000 members [0], which is around 0.19% of the population of Germany, Switzerland and Austria (EDIT: see comments below, most of them are "nichtschlagend", meaning they don't duel). Compare this to 34.000 students in the German empire in 1900, which was under 0.1% of the population. I would assume that not every student was member of a fraternity back then, so the number of active fraternity members was even lower. Now, I do not know if the 190.000 members include non-active members as well, but I don't think you can generally say that their membership dwindled significantly over the last 100 years. Also, after studying in a University town in Germany where fraternity live is still very present, I don't think you can generally say that these fraternities are reactionary and/or right-winged (although there membership is, on average, much more conservative than the general population). I only noticed one common denominator among all of them: a massive consumption of alcohol. [0] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studentenverbindung https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studentenverbindung

ygra 7y ago
Most of those are not schlagende Verbindungen, though.
morsch 7y ago
I saw the Wikipedia article. The number isn't properly sourced, but it's believable enough. The closest attribution is this journalistic article[1], which doesn't have the number. It also refers to the dwindling relevance in the past decades, which I was thinking of rather than going back a century. I'll let DeepL translate: However, what sounds pleasing from the point of view of the student fraternities is different on the bottom line. "Despite the new admissions we have a minus of about 200 members per year", says CV managing director Weiskorn. This is due to the fact that the vast majority of members are older academics, some of whom die every year. This development is in line with the long-term trend that can be observed overall among the student fraternities: "According to information from the cross-corporate mergers CDA and CDK, the number of fraternity members declined significantly between 1997 and 2009," says political scientist Kurth. "This downward spiral is accompanied by a massive loss of importance." Less than one percent of all students are now organized in corporations. It's worth mentioning that most fraternities don't duel. Dueling fraternities are the reactionary minority of a conservative minority. [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20141129111313/http://www.wdr.de/wissen/wdr_wissen/themen/schule_beruf/aktuell/2011/10/studentenverbindungen.php5 https://web.archive.org/web/20141129111313/http://www.wdr.de...
- hobofan 7y ago
  > Dueling fraternities are the reactionary minority of a conservative minority. As someone that knows quite a few people from dueling fraternities (recent graduates), I don't think that's a fair generalization (even though that's the common trope). There has been a lot of organizational changes in the last two decades around one of the biggest associations for dueling fraternities (DB), where a lot of fraternities that didn't align with their reactionary views left and founded associations of their own. As a result of that, DB is now half of its initial size. And there are probably also a few that didn't leave where the younger generation has more progressive views, but they weren't able to convince the old inactive members (which are the bulk) to leave. So yeah, they are generally of a conservative political mindset, but I would say that the strong political tendencies portrayed in media and hearsay only apply to maybe ~1/3 or less of dueling fraternities.
  - cycomanic 7y ago
    I assume by DB you mean the Deutsche Burschenschaft, which still includes the majority of fraternities not just the ones that duel. You are correct that many left, but that was not because the DB moved to the right it was more that generally society became more and more critical. The same fraternities did not have any issues for many years that several of the prominent members fraternities of DB had Neonazis in key roles. To give a taste of the views held by many fraternities. Most (90%) do not allow women members, many do not allow members from migrant backgrounds (and the ones that changed only did so in the last 10 years or so). When Germany still had military service (technically it's just "paused"), most fraternities did not allow members who had done "Zivildienst" which is the substitute where you work in hospitals, retirement homes...
    - hobofan 7y ago
      My point is that what you call "the same fraternities" are not the same fraternities anymore. Younger, more progressive (compared to the status quo of the fraternities) members join, and older less progressive members leave (die). I personally don't share the values of fraternities, and would never join one, but I've also come to see that they can be a good station for young adolescents leaving their parents homes for the first time, if done right, and would also love to see them open up to more diverse groups of people. In the last years, community structures for teenagers/adolescents (e.g. sport clubs, scouts) are becoming less and less popular, and I'd hate for that trend to continue, as I personally wouldn't be the same without them, had they not existed. I'd rather see them reform than be shunned out of existence.
thomasz 7y ago
The vast majority these are "Alte Herren", i.e older, non active members. The important fact is that their importance for student live and career opportunities has all but ceased to exist.

by lqet 7y ago

ygra 7y ago

Most of those are not schlagende Verbindungen, though.

morsch 7y ago

I saw the Wikipedia article. The number isn't properly sourced, but it's believable enough. The closest attribution is this journalistic article[1], which doesn't have the number. It also refers to the dwindling relevance in the past decades, which I was thinking of rather than going back a century. I'll let DeepL translate: However, what sounds pleasing from the point of view of the student fraternities is different on the bottom line. "Despite the new admissions we have a minus of about 200 members per year", says CV managing director Weiskorn. This is due to the fact that the vast majority of members are older academics, some of whom die every year. This development is in line with the long-term trend that can be observed overall among the student fraternities: "According to information from the cross-corporate mergers CDA and CDK, the number of fraternity members declined significantly between 1997 and 2009," says political scientist Kurth. "This downward spiral is accompanied by a massive loss of importance." Less than one percent of all students are now organized in corporations. It's worth mentioning that most fraternities don't duel. Dueling fraternities are the reactionary minority of a conservative minority. [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20141129111313/http://www.wdr.de/wissen/wdr_wissen/themen/schule_beruf/aktuell/2011/10/studentenverbindungen.php5 https://web.archive.org/web/20141129111313/http://www.wdr.de...

hobofan 7y ago
> Dueling fraternities are the reactionary minority of a conservative minority. As someone that knows quite a few people from dueling fraternities (recent graduates), I don't think that's a fair generalization (even though that's the common trope). There has been a lot of organizational changes in the last two decades around one of the biggest associations for dueling fraternities (DB), where a lot of fraternities that didn't align with their reactionary views left and founded associations of their own. As a result of that, DB is now half of its initial size. And there are probably also a few that didn't leave where the younger generation has more progressive views, but they weren't able to convince the old inactive members (which are the bulk) to leave. So yeah, they are generally of a conservative political mindset, but I would say that the strong political tendencies portrayed in media and hearsay only apply to maybe ~1/3 or less of dueling fraternities.
- cycomanic 7y ago
  I assume by DB you mean the Deutsche Burschenschaft, which still includes the majority of fraternities not just the ones that duel. You are correct that many left, but that was not because the DB moved to the right it was more that generally society became more and more critical. The same fraternities did not have any issues for many years that several of the prominent members fraternities of DB had Neonazis in key roles. To give a taste of the views held by many fraternities. Most (90%) do not allow women members, many do not allow members from migrant backgrounds (and the ones that changed only did so in the last 10 years or so). When Germany still had military service (technically it's just "paused"), most fraternities did not allow members who had done "Zivildienst" which is the substitute where you work in hospitals, retirement homes...
  - hobofan 7y ago
    My point is that what you call "the same fraternities" are not the same fraternities anymore. Younger, more progressive (compared to the status quo of the fraternities) members join, and older less progressive members leave (die). I personally don't share the values of fraternities, and would never join one, but I've also come to see that they can be a good station for young adolescents leaving their parents homes for the first time, if done right, and would also love to see them open up to more diverse groups of people. In the last years, community structures for teenagers/adolescents (e.g. sport clubs, scouts) are becoming less and less popular, and I'd hate for that trend to continue, as I personally wouldn't be the same without them, had they not existed. I'd rather see them reform than be shunned out of existence.

thomasz 7y ago

The vast majority these are "Alte Herren", i.e older, non active members. The important fact is that their importance for student live and career opportunities has all but ceased to exist.