3 ms·

> I can open any thread on HN regarding economics and the general level of arrogant ignorance is staggering. This is a problem very generally -- and is signifi

by vanniv 6y ago

> I can open any thread on HN regarding economics and the general level of arrogant ignorance is staggering. This is a problem very generally -- and is significantly exacerbated by the highly-polarized nature of our society at present. Right now, virtually anything interesting becomes a part of the political identity fight immediately -- and once that happens, reinforcing the narrative is more important than anything else. Not just by people actively trying to advance the narrative -- but because people collectively only talk to other people from their tribe, and so they get facts and "facts" that fit the narrative. The Coronavirus is no exception. In early February, it was a Republican/Right position that the Coronavirus was dangerous and a Democrat/Left position that Coronavirus fears were an excuse to hate Asian/Chinese people. Ironically, now, in April, it's a Republican/Right position that Coronavirus fears are dramatically overblown / a crisis being exaggerated for political or economic gains, and it's now a Democrat/Left position that the Coronavirus is a near-existential level threat that requires the strongest response possible. These positions were initially formed from data, but once the narratives are chosen, partisans do what partisans do -- and since basically everybody is hyperpartisan now, that means we get where we are.

tonyedgecombe 6y ago
This seems to be a particularly American issue. Even in the UK post Brexit it hasn't happened. There has been the odd gentle prod but in general the opposition has supported the stance taken by the government.
- makomk 6y ago
  The UK opposition party has been supportive, but I can't say the same thing about the press or their supporters in the general population - that's still really hyper-partisan and has imported a bunch of the US narratives as well.
  - tonyedgecombe 6y ago
    Yes, the UK press has been terrible. Surprisingly (or maybe not) the best coverage seems to have come from the business press.
- qqssccfftt 6y ago
  That's not a good thing given the awful response that the UK government has had.
- vanniv 6y ago
  America has become this extremely polarized place the last 10ish years where everybody know that "the other side" are actually monsters. If you are a Democrat, you think of Republicans as Nazis and white supremacists. If you're a Republican, you think of Democrats as authoritarians and communists. Naturally, once you "know" that the other side is the party of pure evil, you know that whatever the propose, you must oppose. (Even if you're a politician who doesn't really believe this, you wouldn't want to be seen as agreeing with monsters). A related problem is that nobody trusts our institutions and processes. Republicans mostly believe that the Democrats have built their power primarily on vote fraud and the support of the media. (Things like the big push for extended time mail-in ballots and "ballot harvesting" which produce ballots with no chain of custody feed these fears of vote fraud). Democrats mostly believe that Republicans have built their power on secret backroom deals with foreign powers and a collection of billionaires (there have been a variety of investigations into folks' dealings with Russia in particular.) As a result nobody much cares about preserving the norms or the niceties -- only winning the fight of the moment. If you're an American, you can likely point to one or two things that "the other side" did that started this process -- my Republican friends and my Democrat friends each tell me about what the enemy did to start the fight. (Republicans are more likely to use the word 'war', but they both tend to see it as an existential struggle for our continued freedom) Against that background of hate and distrust, every action is seen as obviously being the worst possible thing. I know plenty of (smart) Republicans who know for certain that coronavirus lockdowns are part of a premeditated plan to finally end liberty and install a new communist dictatorship in November (that's why mail in balloting is holding up the coronavirus relief bill -- Democrats need to make sure they can vote fraud their way to 100% control before we demand to be let out of our houses). Before you tell me that they aren't smart, I also know some very smart and capable Democrats that believe that Republicans want to reopen states like Michigan because the only people who will go back to work in big numbers will be the poor and minorities, and the entire goal of the coronavirus response was to use it as best as possible to "liquidate" the poor and brown people, so that the rich who control Republicans can have lower taxes and lots of vacant property to buy up for cheap. That's also why the borders are closed -- they believe that is intended to be permanent and in both directions, since Republicans hate foreigners. These that I have presented are the "strong" versions of the beliefs I've encountered. They're not universal, but the hate and distrust implied by them is nearly universal. I am presumably not an exception, though the (unusual) fact that I keep members of both parties in my social circles helps keep me able to see both perspectives clearer than most seem to.
watwut 6y ago
There was fight in February about closing fights specifically with China (but not from Europe which was already affected and not testing travellers), calling virus Chinese virus. Republicans back then however also claimed it is under control and not much if threat and definitely did not advocated for any measures (testing, masks, making people stay at home, closing public events) except closing direct flies from China. There was no observable flop between the two parties positions. Democrats can simultaneously believe that 1.) calling virus China virus and closing exactly direct flights is mostly about racism and pushing blame from own inaction 2.) virus is threat, crisis and country needs to act in other ways. Republicans can simultaneously believe it is nothingburger no worst then flu exaggerated by Democrats for political reasons and then call it China virus.

by vanniv 6y ago

tonyedgecombe 6y ago

This seems to be a particularly American issue. Even in the UK post Brexit it hasn't happened. There has been the odd gentle prod but in general the opposition has supported the stance taken by the government.

makomk 6y ago
The UK opposition party has been supportive, but I can't say the same thing about the press or their supporters in the general population - that's still really hyper-partisan and has imported a bunch of the US narratives as well.
- tonyedgecombe 6y ago
  Yes, the UK press has been terrible. Surprisingly (or maybe not) the best coverage seems to have come from the business press.
qqssccfftt 6y ago
That's not a good thing given the awful response that the UK government has had.
vanniv 6y ago
America has become this extremely polarized place the last 10ish years where everybody know that "the other side" are actually monsters. If you are a Democrat, you think of Republicans as Nazis and white supremacists. If you're a Republican, you think of Democrats as authoritarians and communists. Naturally, once you "know" that the other side is the party of pure evil, you know that whatever the propose, you must oppose. (Even if you're a politician who doesn't really believe this, you wouldn't want to be seen as agreeing with monsters). A related problem is that nobody trusts our institutions and processes. Republicans mostly believe that the Democrats have built their power primarily on vote fraud and the support of the media. (Things like the big push for extended time mail-in ballots and "ballot harvesting" which produce ballots with no chain of custody feed these fears of vote fraud). Democrats mostly believe that Republicans have built their power on secret backroom deals with foreign powers and a collection of billionaires (there have been a variety of investigations into folks' dealings with Russia in particular.) As a result nobody much cares about preserving the norms or the niceties -- only winning the fight of the moment. If you're an American, you can likely point to one or two things that "the other side" did that started this process -- my Republican friends and my Democrat friends each tell me about what the enemy did to start the fight. (Republicans are more likely to use the word 'war', but they both tend to see it as an existential struggle for our continued freedom) Against that background of hate and distrust, every action is seen as obviously being the worst possible thing. I know plenty of (smart) Republicans who know for certain that coronavirus lockdowns are part of a premeditated plan to finally end liberty and install a new communist dictatorship in November (that's why mail in balloting is holding up the coronavirus relief bill -- Democrats need to make sure they can vote fraud their way to 100% control before we demand to be let out of our houses). Before you tell me that they aren't smart, I also know some very smart and capable Democrats that believe that Republicans want to reopen states like Michigan because the only people who will go back to work in big numbers will be the poor and minorities, and the entire goal of the coronavirus response was to use it as best as possible to "liquidate" the poor and brown people, so that the rich who control Republicans can have lower taxes and lots of vacant property to buy up for cheap. That's also why the borders are closed -- they believe that is intended to be permanent and in both directions, since Republicans hate foreigners. These that I have presented are the "strong" versions of the beliefs I've encountered. They're not universal, but the hate and distrust implied by them is nearly universal. I am presumably not an exception, though the (unusual) fact that I keep members of both parties in my social circles helps keep me able to see both perspectives clearer than most seem to.

watwut 6y ago

There was fight in February about closing fights specifically with China (but not from Europe which was already affected and not testing travellers), calling virus Chinese virus. Republicans back then however also claimed it is under control and not much if threat and definitely did not advocated for any measures (testing, masks, making people stay at home, closing public events) except closing direct flies from China. There was no observable flop between the two parties positions. Democrats can simultaneously believe that 1.) calling virus China virus and closing exactly direct flights is mostly about racism and pushing blame from own inaction 2.) virus is threat, crisis and country needs to act in other ways. Republicans can simultaneously believe it is nothingburger no worst then flu exaggerated by Democrats for political reasons and then call it China virus.