3 ms·

I'm young (25) but my first (family) computer used to run Windows 98 (that's what we could afford). And I can recall well, UI had one "meta-language": menu bar

by Pmop 6y ago

I'm young (25) but my first (family) computer used to run Windows 98 (that's what we could afford). And I can recall well, UI had one "meta-language": menu bar (file, view ..., help), toolbar, and if you'd hover your mouse pointer over a widget, a tooltip would show up with explanation about what the widget does and the keyboard shortcut for that action. Once you learnt how to use one application, say Paint, you'd probably pick up any other quickly. Also, there was the always helpful Help Window (F1) with rich explanation about everything you'd want to know. I feel that Modern UIs are awkward to use. Many applications have their own way of doing the same thing other applications do. Oftentimes their new way of doing something is badly documented (tooltips are too ugly I guess), so now you have to search the web for help; the help you found is full of useless text, ads and browser-locking javascript; soon enough you find yourself longing for Win 98 era UI.

myself248 6y ago
YES. We spent years training our muscle-memory to understand this interface, and it's gone. It's like someone flipped gravity because they thought it was cool, and if your stomach isn't okay with that, well that's your stomach's problem. Fuck those people. The top 2 evils on my list right now: Buttons that don't appear until you wave the mouse near them. I spent way too long, and had to Google, how to zoom a PDF in Chrome. Turns out there are buttons for that, they're just hidden unless you wander over into a corner where there are no other controls so you'd never go there. Borderless windows. It's confusing enough that we seem to eschew background patterns now, but borderless windows (or like, 1px-wide borders on a high-dpi screen) make it so much harder to figure out what's going on at a glance. I've found myself trying to figure out where the title bar is, then grabbing it and wiggling the window, just to make sure I understand which UI elements are part of the thing I'm currently interacting with. What's worse is, I can't imagine anything that was actually gained from either of these changes, other than "Sam in Widgets thinks think it looks cool". They certainly don't help accessibility. They're the worst for usability. And they're a giant up-yours to anyone loyal to a single platform for a few years because they trusted that platform to reward their learning and muscle memory.
- EmilioMartinez 6y ago
  >Borderless windows An attempt at being sophisticated, that to me translates as "fuck you, you can't touch me, I'm too ethereal for this world"
mopsi 6y ago
It's all still there in Win32 Apps microcosm, available for anyone to use. I'm currently working on a pure Win32 application and Microsoft's tips are delightfully helpful for establishing a consistent design language across the whole platform. They call it "powerful and simple" in https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/uxguide/how-to-design-desktop-ux https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/uxguide/how-t... Win32 Guidelines are also very illuminating: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/uxguide/guidelines https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/uxguide/guide... My favourite aspect of Win32 is built-in behaviour. Things like keyboard-based navigation and screen readers work without needing any dedicated effort on my part. Visual elements are drawn by the operating system and remain consistent with system theme colors, font size, contrast and other user preferences. I always think about that when I see "Now supports dark mode" in a changelog... why don't they just use standard controls and leave all the finer details to the OS to deal with. Windows has supported system-wide theming for decades.
- int_19h 6y ago
  The problem is that even Microsoft's own desktop apps often don't follow these guidelines. And then there's UWP...
- userbinator 6y ago
  Windows has supported system-wide theming for decades. ...and more recently has been castrating that ability greatly, seemingly in favour of the horrible bland-and-flat trend, which is unfortunate because the ability to customise is highly desirable for usability/accessibility. (Long-time Win32 programmer here, I agree that the built-in behaviour of the standard controls is highly consistent and also very usable.)
mihaaly 6y ago
Being almost 50 I agree completely. I remember enjoying learning software rapidly in various topics which made me know a broad set of tools on at least mediocre but mostly advanced level, from photo editing to system administration. Nowadays it is a pain and suffering in most of the cases and I was starting to believe I became ancient. Thanks Pmop to prove otherwise. And as the article says the most frustrating is becoming beginner in a tool again that you knew expertly just because the UI reorganizes the very same things and you cannot use it anymore to the same level while it is still there somewhere, you have to relearn. All this for some questionable variation in visuals. Sacrificing usability. E.g. I hate what MS did to the Skype, it was a favorite one helping me in countless life situation form business to love but I avoid it now at all cost. It is simply almost useless. But this is true for many others, also I reluctant learning new software as it is not that straightforward as before. Another hateful thing is that I rarely find something intuitively but have to Google what is the current awkward logic for its placement and activation method. The "best" is when new unwanted features in new versions are forced on by default and coupled with forensic level of investigation for the method of turning it off (assuming it can be, as in a few it is just forced on you, no questions asked, I am looking at you damn notification center! I had to chase you each and every time between OSX updates being harder and harder to achieve the goal of killing you)
omniscient_oce 6y ago
Because software needs to stand out more as there are way more players in the game. It's like how every few days there's a post on Reddit about how someone has started their new habit tracker / Todo app SaaS. yay! Apparently it solves a problem that all the others don't... We also need a new JS framework every few months and redefine our library APIs (react router is up to what version now?) all the time
mproud 6y ago
Even computer games like Civilization II and SimCity 2000 used traditional OS menus.
- lstodd 6y ago
  Amiga version of Colonization went further and used multiple native windows. Looked way better than the PC version.
tsjq 6y ago
totally agree with this. there is a constant 'discovery' thing in these days UI/UX

by Pmop 6y ago

myself248 6y ago

YES. We spent years training our muscle-memory to understand this interface, and it's gone. It's like someone flipped gravity because they thought it was cool, and if your stomach isn't okay with that, well that's your stomach's problem. Fuck those people. The top 2 evils on my list right now: Buttons that don't appear until you wave the mouse near them. I spent way too long, and had to Google, how to zoom a PDF in Chrome. Turns out there are buttons for that, they're just hidden unless you wander over into a corner where there are no other controls so you'd never go there. Borderless windows. It's confusing enough that we seem to eschew background patterns now, but borderless windows (or like, 1px-wide borders on a high-dpi screen) make it so much harder to figure out what's going on at a glance. I've found myself trying to figure out where the title bar is, then grabbing it and wiggling the window, just to make sure I understand which UI elements are part of the thing I'm currently interacting with. What's worse is, I can't imagine anything that was actually gained from either of these changes, other than "Sam in Widgets thinks think it looks cool". They certainly don't help accessibility. They're the worst for usability. And they're a giant up-yours to anyone loyal to a single platform for a few years because they trusted that platform to reward their learning and muscle memory.

EmilioMartinez 6y ago
>Borderless windows An attempt at being sophisticated, that to me translates as "fuck you, you can't touch me, I'm too ethereal for this world"

mopsi 6y ago

It's all still there in Win32 Apps microcosm, available for anyone to use. I'm currently working on a pure Win32 application and Microsoft's tips are delightfully helpful for establishing a consistent design language across the whole platform. They call it "powerful and simple" in https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/uxguide/how-to-design-desktop-ux https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/uxguide/how-t... Win32 Guidelines are also very illuminating: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/uxguide/guidelines https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/uxguide/guide... My favourite aspect of Win32 is built-in behaviour. Things like keyboard-based navigation and screen readers work without needing any dedicated effort on my part. Visual elements are drawn by the operating system and remain consistent with system theme colors, font size, contrast and other user preferences. I always think about that when I see "Now supports dark mode" in a changelog... why don't they just use standard controls and leave all the finer details to the OS to deal with. Windows has supported system-wide theming for decades.

int_19h 6y ago
The problem is that even Microsoft's own desktop apps often don't follow these guidelines. And then there's UWP...
userbinator 6y ago
Windows has supported system-wide theming for decades. ...and more recently has been castrating that ability greatly, seemingly in favour of the horrible bland-and-flat trend, which is unfortunate because the ability to customise is highly desirable for usability/accessibility. (Long-time Win32 programmer here, I agree that the built-in behaviour of the standard controls is highly consistent and also very usable.)

mihaaly 6y ago

Being almost 50 I agree completely. I remember enjoying learning software rapidly in various topics which made me know a broad set of tools on at least mediocre but mostly advanced level, from photo editing to system administration. Nowadays it is a pain and suffering in most of the cases and I was starting to believe I became ancient. Thanks Pmop to prove otherwise. And as the article says the most frustrating is becoming beginner in a tool again that you knew expertly just because the UI reorganizes the very same things and you cannot use it anymore to the same level while it is still there somewhere, you have to relearn. All this for some questionable variation in visuals. Sacrificing usability. E.g. I hate what MS did to the Skype, it was a favorite one helping me in countless life situation form business to love but I avoid it now at all cost. It is simply almost useless. But this is true for many others, also I reluctant learning new software as it is not that straightforward as before. Another hateful thing is that I rarely find something intuitively but have to Google what is the current awkward logic for its placement and activation method. The "best" is when new unwanted features in new versions are forced on by default and coupled with forensic level of investigation for the method of turning it off (assuming it can be, as in a few it is just forced on you, no questions asked, I am looking at you damn notification center! I had to chase you each and every time between OSX updates being harder and harder to achieve the goal of killing you)

omniscient_oce 6y ago

Because software needs to stand out more as there are way more players in the game. It's like how every few days there's a post on Reddit about how someone has started their new habit tracker / Todo app SaaS. yay! Apparently it solves a problem that all the others don't... We also need a new JS framework every few months and redefine our library APIs (react router is up to what version now?) all the time

mproud 6y ago

Even computer games like Civilization II and SimCity 2000 used traditional OS menus.

lstodd 6y ago
Amiga version of Colonization went further and used multiple native windows. Looked way better than the PC version.

tsjq 6y ago

totally agree with this. there is a constant 'discovery' thing in these days UI/UX