4 ms·

Thing is: I don't care if you run XP or Win7 (or Mac OS X or Ubuntu for that matter) because my software does not run on top of the OS but on top of a modern br

by middus 16y ago

Thing is: I don't care if you run XP or Win7 (or Mac OS X or Ubuntu for that matter) because my software does not run on top of the OS but on top of a modern browsers. So the IE8/9 difference matters to me, the OS difference does not. Don't forget that most (or at least a lot of) people here on HN develop or run web apps.

Pahalial 16y ago
Within the scope of this discussion, that's somewhat facetious. The main reason cited for wanting people to move off IE6 is security concerns rather than HTML5 support, and for good reason - I don't care whether people can use the latest-greatest version of gmail, I care whether they're unduly liable to become part of a botnet that can bring down gmail for everyone.
- SwellJoe 16y ago
  That's not my reason, and I've never once mentioned it. I don't care a bit about other people's security. It's an important issue, but life is short, and I've got other stuff to worry about. My applications have to run in people's browsers...if there are a significant number of people using crappy old browsers (of which IE8 is one), it affects my life and my use of time.
  - Locke1689 16y ago
    Alright, well I'm in security and I want people off Windows XP. What now? Do we fight over who has the more self-serving agenda? Please. Since when did Hacker News become about pandering to software development subfields?
    - mixmastamyk 16y ago
      The difference is that XP can be coerced into a reasonable semblance of security, whereas IE6 is unfixable.
      - Locke1689 16y ago
        XP is also unfixable. You just know more about web development than you do about permissions security.
        wtallis 16y ago
        So, are you saying that Windows 7 is significantly more secure than XP can ever be?
        Locke1689 16y ago
        Yes. A number of security augmentations in Windows 7 required significant modifications to the operating system kernel and user space environment (almost to the point of a rewrite in some cases). These modifications cannot happen in Windows XP without turning Windows XP into Windows 7.
        mixmastamyk 16y ago
        Not enabled by default making them less effective than they should be.
        Locke1689 16y ago
        What are you talking about? This is prima facie untrue.
        mixmastamyk 16y ago
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Execution_Prevention#Windows http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Execution_Prevention#Windo... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Address_space_layout_randomization#Microsoft_Windows http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Address_space_layout_randomizat... Backward compatibility prevents most of these from being utilized fully, a shame.
        16y ago
    - SwellJoe 16y ago
      "Since when did Hacker News become about pandering to software development subfields?" Since always. But, that's not the point. This whole conversation is about Microsoft referring people to a site that will help them upgrade their browser...the majority of people seeing the message and following those steps, will be upgrading to a browser that just isn't up to snuff. The page it links to does not show people how to upgrade their OS. You're the one taking this conversation in an entirely unrelated direction, and bringing OS security into the discussion. I'm complaining because the whole IE countdown thing is a nuisance rather than a help. And, again, the OS people run is not my concern. The browser with which they use my applications, however, is my concern. Getting people to upgrade their OS is Microsoft's problem, not mine. But, by recommending an old browser for their users that haven't upgraded from XP, they're making their problem into my problem. I'm tired of dealing with Microsoft's problems, and I don't think it's fair that they use their market clout to keep putting their problems on my plate.
      - Locke1689 16y ago
        But, that's not the point. This whole conversation is about Microsoft referring people to a site that will help them upgrade their browser...the majority of people seeing the message and following those steps, will be upgrading to a browser that just isn't up to snuff. Expecting Microsoft to advocate people moving to a non-Microsoft product is idiotic. I'm tired of dealing with Microsoft's problems, and I don't think it's fair that they use their market clout to keep putting their problems on my plate. Let me get this straight -- your main complaint is that it's not fair?!
        SwellJoe 16y ago
        Yeah, I like it when people I work with, directly or indirectly, play fair. When they don't, I feel I have every right to criticize them for it, which is what I've been doing. I believe Microsoft is doing the web (and me, as a developer for the web) a disservice, and I'd like them to stop damaging the web (and me).

by middus 16y ago

Pahalial 16y ago

Within the scope of this discussion, that's somewhat facetious. The main reason cited for wanting people to move off IE6 is security concerns rather than HTML5 support, and for good reason - I don't care whether people can use the latest-greatest version of gmail, I care whether they're unduly liable to become part of a botnet that can bring down gmail for everyone.

SwellJoe 16y ago
That's not my reason, and I've never once mentioned it. I don't care a bit about other people's security. It's an important issue, but life is short, and I've got other stuff to worry about. My applications have to run in people's browsers...if there are a significant number of people using crappy old browsers (of which IE8 is one), it affects my life and my use of time.
- Locke1689 16y ago
  Alright, well I'm in security and I want people off Windows XP. What now? Do we fight over who has the more self-serving agenda? Please. Since when did Hacker News become about pandering to software development subfields?
  - mixmastamyk 16y ago
    The difference is that XP can be coerced into a reasonable semblance of security, whereas IE6 is unfixable.
    - Locke1689 16y ago
      XP is also unfixable. You just know more about web development than you do about permissions security.
      - wtallis 16y ago
        So, are you saying that Windows 7 is significantly more secure than XP can ever be?
        Locke1689 16y ago
        Yes. A number of security augmentations in Windows 7 required significant modifications to the operating system kernel and user space environment (almost to the point of a rewrite in some cases). These modifications cannot happen in Windows XP without turning Windows XP into Windows 7.
        mixmastamyk 16y ago
        Not enabled by default making them less effective than they should be.
        Locke1689 16y ago
        What are you talking about? This is prima facie untrue.
        mixmastamyk 16y ago
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Execution_Prevention#Windows http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Execution_Prevention#Windo... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Address_space_layout_randomization#Microsoft_Windows http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Address_space_layout_randomizat... Backward compatibility prevents most of these from being utilized fully, a shame.
        16y ago
  - SwellJoe 16y ago
    "Since when did Hacker News become about pandering to software development subfields?" Since always. But, that's not the point. This whole conversation is about Microsoft referring people to a site that will help them upgrade their browser...the majority of people seeing the message and following those steps, will be upgrading to a browser that just isn't up to snuff. The page it links to does not show people how to upgrade their OS. You're the one taking this conversation in an entirely unrelated direction, and bringing OS security into the discussion. I'm complaining because the whole IE countdown thing is a nuisance rather than a help. And, again, the OS people run is not my concern. The browser with which they use my applications, however, is my concern. Getting people to upgrade their OS is Microsoft's problem, not mine. But, by recommending an old browser for their users that haven't upgraded from XP, they're making their problem into my problem. I'm tired of dealing with Microsoft's problems, and I don't think it's fair that they use their market clout to keep putting their problems on my plate.
    - Locke1689 16y ago
      But, that's not the point. This whole conversation is about Microsoft referring people to a site that will help them upgrade their browser...the majority of people seeing the message and following those steps, will be upgrading to a browser that just isn't up to snuff. Expecting Microsoft to advocate people moving to a non-Microsoft product is idiotic. I'm tired of dealing with Microsoft's problems, and I don't think it's fair that they use their market clout to keep putting their problems on my plate. Let me get this straight -- your main complaint is that it's not fair?!
      - SwellJoe 16y ago
        Yeah, I like it when people I work with, directly or indirectly, play fair. When they don't, I feel I have every right to criticize them for it, which is what I've been doing. I believe Microsoft is doing the web (and me, as a developer for the web) a disservice, and I'd like them to stop damaging the web (and me).