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Sepp Holzer's farm is amazing. I think however it's unlikely that he's truly able to grow citrus fruit at scale even using all of his near magical techniques. W

Sepp Holzer's farm is amazing. I think however it's unlikely that he's truly able to grow citrus fruit at scale even using all of his near magical techniques. Where he is able to grow citrus fruit is taking advantage of very small micro climates with ponds buffering temperatures and acting to reflect evening sun along with perfect orientation etc.

hutzlibu 6y ago
Permaculture in general sadly does not produce at scale at all and scaling up is very labour intensive.
- floatrock 6y ago
  The average car in the US has a 120 horsepower engine, less if it's a compact, more if it's a truck or SUV. Think about that for a second -- your garage is housing the equivalent of 120 horses. How much "labor" is that? Now, we don't really notice that when everything is working well and the gasoline keeps flowing. There are calculations that figure a gallon of oil has something like two weeks of 8-hour/day manual labor embedded in it, energy-wise (using the cute term "energy slaves"). Synthentic fertilizer is basically spending a crap-ton of energy to fix nitrogen -- google "haber bosch energy". Especially with the covid supply chain disruptions going on now, though, I've been rethinking what "scale" means or if it's even the right metric to be going for. Permaculture has been really interesting to me last few weeks because it doesn't try to go for "scale" per se (though there are claims that properly done it's more productive per acre), but rather it tries to cycle as many energy flows as possible. So if your yardstick is "how many bushels of corn per acre can I grow?" then yeah, permaculture doesn't 'scale'. But if your yardstick is "how do I get the most output while minimizing energy inputs" and accept that outputs aren't necessarily a monocrop but can be complementary outputs (corn + legumes + animals + fertilizer), then it starts to get really interesting. I'm a developer not a farmer, but the systems-level thinking I've seen in the permaculture community is extremely fascinating. There's 'labor' embedded everywhere, the question is are you counting it.
  - koheripbal 6y ago
    ...except that you can go to a store where you can simply BUY for CHEAP far far more and more diverse foods than you could ever dream of growing. No one who does this thinks it's efficient. It's just a fun hobby.
    - hutzlibu 6y ago
      "No one who does this thinks it's efficient" Erm ... clearly you have not met true believers of the movement ..
  - hutzlibu 6y ago
    "Think about that for a second -- your garage is housing the equivalent of 120 horses. How much "labor" is that?" Not it is not. A horse needs food, also if it is idle. A car does not. And labour does not equal energy. The advancement of humanity did happen, because we found other energy sources and apply them, so machines can do the hard labour. (now it is a struggle to adjust that system, but I believe globally the sun is excessively shining to provide all the energy we need) "I'm a developer not a farmer, but the systems-level thinking I've seen in the permaculture community is extremely fascinating" And to this I agree very much, but I would still rather bet on more traditional ways of feeding the world.
  - VBprogrammer 6y ago
    Not sure if you've come come across it but Gabe Brown has done some interesting stuff in farm scale low input farming. https://youtu.be/uUmIdq0D6-A https://youtu.be/uUmIdq0D6-A That said, I think there is a lot of interesting stuff in permaculture design. But in a lot of cases it is a bit of a pyramid scheme / agile consultancy feel going on.
    - hutzlibu 6y ago
      "But in a lot of cases it is a bit of a pyramid scheme / agile consultancy feel going on." Definitely, Sepp Holzer is sadly a prominent example of this as well. There was a case of a new project, where a naive women, a true believer of permaculture, invested all her money in a permaculture school project under the guidance of Holzer, where all the ordinary farmers could learn how much more efficient permaculture is. And it failed spectacular and ended in court. [german wikipedia for more, english version is very small]
- dsparkman 6y ago
  You need to look at the work of Mark Shepard. His work is all about farm scale permaculture. He has a book Restoration Agriculture you can find on Amazon, etc.
  - hutzlibu 6y ago
    I will, but I think I read quite some books about it and visited many permaculture farms and tried to apply technics in my own garden quite some time ago. And my conclusion is, there is way too much wishful thinking involved. For example I have never seen a permaculture farm that was actually self sufficient. Either they had other sources of income, or they had paid tours. Permaculture is nice and I would like to see more of it adopted, but I don't see at all, how we could feed the current world population with it. With general ecologocal farming, yes.

hutzlibu 6y ago

Permaculture in general sadly does not produce at scale at all and scaling up is very labour intensive.

floatrock 6y ago
The average car in the US has a 120 horsepower engine, less if it's a compact, more if it's a truck or SUV. Think about that for a second -- your garage is housing the equivalent of 120 horses. How much "labor" is that? Now, we don't really notice that when everything is working well and the gasoline keeps flowing. There are calculations that figure a gallon of oil has something like two weeks of 8-hour/day manual labor embedded in it, energy-wise (using the cute term "energy slaves"). Synthentic fertilizer is basically spending a crap-ton of energy to fix nitrogen -- google "haber bosch energy". Especially with the covid supply chain disruptions going on now, though, I've been rethinking what "scale" means or if it's even the right metric to be going for. Permaculture has been really interesting to me last few weeks because it doesn't try to go for "scale" per se (though there are claims that properly done it's more productive per acre), but rather it tries to cycle as many energy flows as possible. So if your yardstick is "how many bushels of corn per acre can I grow?" then yeah, permaculture doesn't 'scale'. But if your yardstick is "how do I get the most output while minimizing energy inputs" and accept that outputs aren't necessarily a monocrop but can be complementary outputs (corn + legumes + animals + fertilizer), then it starts to get really interesting. I'm a developer not a farmer, but the systems-level thinking I've seen in the permaculture community is extremely fascinating. There's 'labor' embedded everywhere, the question is are you counting it.
- koheripbal 6y ago
  ...except that you can go to a store where you can simply BUY for CHEAP far far more and more diverse foods than you could ever dream of growing. No one who does this thinks it's efficient. It's just a fun hobby.
  - hutzlibu 6y ago
    "No one who does this thinks it's efficient" Erm ... clearly you have not met true believers of the movement ..
- hutzlibu 6y ago
  "Think about that for a second -- your garage is housing the equivalent of 120 horses. How much "labor" is that?" Not it is not. A horse needs food, also if it is idle. A car does not. And labour does not equal energy. The advancement of humanity did happen, because we found other energy sources and apply them, so machines can do the hard labour. (now it is a struggle to adjust that system, but I believe globally the sun is excessively shining to provide all the energy we need) "I'm a developer not a farmer, but the systems-level thinking I've seen in the permaculture community is extremely fascinating" And to this I agree very much, but I would still rather bet on more traditional ways of feeding the world.
- VBprogrammer 6y ago
  Not sure if you've come come across it but Gabe Brown has done some interesting stuff in farm scale low input farming. https://youtu.be/uUmIdq0D6-A https://youtu.be/uUmIdq0D6-A That said, I think there is a lot of interesting stuff in permaculture design. But in a lot of cases it is a bit of a pyramid scheme / agile consultancy feel going on.
  - hutzlibu 6y ago
    "But in a lot of cases it is a bit of a pyramid scheme / agile consultancy feel going on." Definitely, Sepp Holzer is sadly a prominent example of this as well. There was a case of a new project, where a naive women, a true believer of permaculture, invested all her money in a permaculture school project under the guidance of Holzer, where all the ordinary farmers could learn how much more efficient permaculture is. And it failed spectacular and ended in court. [german wikipedia for more, english version is very small]
dsparkman 6y ago
You need to look at the work of Mark Shepard. His work is all about farm scale permaculture. He has a book Restoration Agriculture you can find on Amazon, etc.
- hutzlibu 6y ago
  I will, but I think I read quite some books about it and visited many permaculture farms and tried to apply technics in my own garden quite some time ago. And my conclusion is, there is way too much wishful thinking involved. For example I have never seen a permaculture farm that was actually self sufficient. Either they had other sources of income, or they had paid tours. Permaculture is nice and I would like to see more of it adopted, but I don't see at all, how we could feed the current world population with it. With general ecologocal farming, yes.