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I'm a small c conservative, and as part of this I care about the environment, and from my perspective there are a number of ways that the environmental movement

I'm a small c conservative, and as part of this I care about the environment, and from my perspective there are a number of ways that the environmental movement don't do themselves any favours. Firstly there are those amongst them that come across far too preachy, in a way that can be a turn-off. Nobody constantly wants to hear bad news and moralising and be told they are personally responsible for all these problems, when most are just trying to get by in a system they didn't create, and have little real influence over. Secondly some of them oppose even the suggestion of technical solutions, preferring instead to emphasise that a kind of hair-shirt existence of drastically poorer lifestyles is all we have the right to expect, as if we've committed some kind of moral crime and only penance will suffice. Thirdly and related to both of the first two points, some (most?) of them are tightly bound to leftist political movements - sometimes tending to the extreme - which both immediately alienates people like me, and makes me suspicious that they are merely using the green movement as a vehicle for ulterior concerns, and indeed some of them are actually completely open about this: 'I’m here to say that XR isn’t about the climate. You see, the climate’s breakdown is a symptom of a toxic system of that has infected the ways we relate to each other as humans and to all life. This was exacerbated when European ‘civilisation’ was spread around the globe through cruelty and violence (especially) over the last 600 years of colonialism, although the roots of the infections go much further back.' https://medium.com/extinction-rebellion/extinction-rebellion-isnt-about-the-climate-42a0a73d9d49 https://medium.com/extinction-rebellion/extinction-rebellion... 'Greta Thunberg: Climate crisis "not just about environment," but also "colonial, racist, patriarchal systems of oppression"' https://disrn.com/news/greta-thunberg-climate-crisis-not-just-about-environment-but-also-colonial-racist-patriarchal-systems-of-oppression https://disrn.com/news/greta-thunberg-climate-crisis-not-jus... I could go on to point out the myriad inconsistencies in the positions of these groups e.g. pro-environment/pro-migration, pro-environment/anti population control, but I'll leave it there. If I think about it for too long it makes me angry because I think these groups are doing more harm than good, and I question whether they really care about the environment at all.

pcmaffey 7y ago
Not sure how you can care about protecting the environment while explicitly ignoring investigation into what’s harming the environment? Unless you believe human activity is not driving climate change, then of course environmentalism is linked to anti-globalization sentiment.
- growlist 7y ago
  > Not sure how you can care about protecting the environment while explicitly ignoring investigation into what’s harming the environment? Can you point to where I advocated for this? I was just pointing out that the groups that have chosen to attempt to monopolise environmental issues for themselves might deserve scrutiny. Remove these groups with ulterior motives - who in any case have proven themselves not particularly effective - and we might get closer to a more grown up debate. Isn't it funny how they choose to hammer rich, liberal democracies that are doing the most for climate change, whilst conveniently avoiding protest in countries where they might get beaten up/thrown in jail? > Unless you believe human activity is not driving climate change, then of course environmentalism is linked to anti-globalization sentiment. Well there's another contradiction for you then: anti-globalization/pro migration.
  - pcmaffey 7y ago
    There are no points to be scored here. I'm just explaining, since you asked, that what you call "ulterior motives" are what environmentalists believe to be root problems. Unfortunately, once you identify that human activity is harming the environmental, everything thereafter becomes politicized. Even science becomes subservient to the negotiation. We humans will continue to squabble whilst the world burns.
  - triceratops 7y ago
    > Isn't it funny how they choose to hammer rich, liberal democracies that are doing the most for climate change, whilst conveniently avoiding protest in countries where they might get beaten up/thrown in jail? Rich countries emit the most carbon per capita and are responsible for the lion's share of past emissions. So the first part of that sentence is rank BS. Activists are obviously gonna activize in their own countries, most of which happen to be rich, liberal democracies. In case you care, even poor democracies have their domestic climate and environmental movements. Non-democracies usually don't have open political movements of any sort.
tonyedgecombe 7y ago
It wasn't those people that pulled the US out of the Paris agreement. All they have done is complain whilst it's been the conservatives that have their hand on the tiller.
- growlist 7y ago
  I would argue that at least in terms of the environment that wasn't a particulary 'conservative' act, wouldn't you? It's possible for both sides to be wrong. But when people like John McDonnell - ex-Labour Shadow Chancellor in case you are not familiar with British politics, and the flavour of politician that's prone to quoting Mao in parliament - start talking about the climate emergency you know it's been hijacked.
  - tonyedgecombe 7y ago
    Oh no, the conservative thing to do would be to conserve your environment and resources. That thinking isn't very Conservative though. As an aside I never believed Labour would really tackle climate change, they are too in-hoc to the unions whose members often work in industries with high emissions. Even their proposed green new deal is dubious: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13563467.2019.1598964 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13563467.2019.15...
Jotra7 7y ago
Let me summarize your issues more succinctly - ME NO LIKE WHEN MEANIE LIBERUL SAY I DO BAD THING SO I BURN PLANET.
jamil7 7y ago
> If I think about it for too long it makes me angry because I think these groups are doing more harm than good I'm don't think you're being fair here since both movements you mention achieved some measurable success last year and caused a surge in local and political conversation with the UK Government ultimately declaring climate emergency and setting a net zero emissions goal. I think the rest of your comment is more or less attempting to paint anyone involved with environmental activism as a preachy, contradictory hippy trope which isn't very realistic nowdays given how mainstream these issues are becoming.

pcmaffey 7y ago

Not sure how you can care about protecting the environment while explicitly ignoring investigation into what’s harming the environment? Unless you believe human activity is not driving climate change, then of course environmentalism is linked to anti-globalization sentiment.

growlist 7y ago
> Not sure how you can care about protecting the environment while explicitly ignoring investigation into what’s harming the environment? Can you point to where I advocated for this? I was just pointing out that the groups that have chosen to attempt to monopolise environmental issues for themselves might deserve scrutiny. Remove these groups with ulterior motives - who in any case have proven themselves not particularly effective - and we might get closer to a more grown up debate. Isn't it funny how they choose to hammer rich, liberal democracies that are doing the most for climate change, whilst conveniently avoiding protest in countries where they might get beaten up/thrown in jail? > Unless you believe human activity is not driving climate change, then of course environmentalism is linked to anti-globalization sentiment. Well there's another contradiction for you then: anti-globalization/pro migration.
- pcmaffey 7y ago
  There are no points to be scored here. I'm just explaining, since you asked, that what you call "ulterior motives" are what environmentalists believe to be root problems. Unfortunately, once you identify that human activity is harming the environmental, everything thereafter becomes politicized. Even science becomes subservient to the negotiation. We humans will continue to squabble whilst the world burns.
- triceratops 7y ago
  > Isn't it funny how they choose to hammer rich, liberal democracies that are doing the most for climate change, whilst conveniently avoiding protest in countries where they might get beaten up/thrown in jail? Rich countries emit the most carbon per capita and are responsible for the lion's share of past emissions. So the first part of that sentence is rank BS. Activists are obviously gonna activize in their own countries, most of which happen to be rich, liberal democracies. In case you care, even poor democracies have their domestic climate and environmental movements. Non-democracies usually don't have open political movements of any sort.

tonyedgecombe 7y ago

It wasn't those people that pulled the US out of the Paris agreement. All they have done is complain whilst it's been the conservatives that have their hand on the tiller.

growlist 7y ago
I would argue that at least in terms of the environment that wasn't a particulary 'conservative' act, wouldn't you? It's possible for both sides to be wrong. But when people like John McDonnell - ex-Labour Shadow Chancellor in case you are not familiar with British politics, and the flavour of politician that's prone to quoting Mao in parliament - start talking about the climate emergency you know it's been hijacked.
- tonyedgecombe 7y ago
  Oh no, the conservative thing to do would be to conserve your environment and resources. That thinking isn't very Conservative though. As an aside I never believed Labour would really tackle climate change, they are too in-hoc to the unions whose members often work in industries with high emissions. Even their proposed green new deal is dubious: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13563467.2019.1598964 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13563467.2019.15...

Jotra7 7y ago

Let me summarize your issues more succinctly - ME NO LIKE WHEN MEANIE LIBERUL SAY I DO BAD THING SO I BURN PLANET.

jamil7 7y ago

> If I think about it for too long it makes me angry because I think these groups are doing more harm than good I'm don't think you're being fair here since both movements you mention achieved some measurable success last year and caused a surge in local and political conversation with the UK Government ultimately declaring climate emergency and setting a net zero emissions goal. I think the rest of your comment is more or less attempting to paint anyone involved with environmental activism as a preachy, contradictory hippy trope which isn't very realistic nowdays given how mainstream these issues are becoming.